There's no difference between "before" and "without" in this context. If you think Mary was sinless "before" Christ sacrificed then you think Mary was sinless "without" the sacrifice of Christ. If the sacrifice didn't happen yet, then it didn't happen. If I didn't go to the store yet, then eggs still got in my refrigerator without me going to the store. Just because you believe the eggs got there magically doesn't mean I have to buy into your belief.
So Moses is damned? Abraham damned? Adam, David, Solomon - all damned?.
No and again this is where you err because you don't know the scriptures. Scriptures says that they haven't received the promise of eternal life...YET.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Paul was discussing Moses and other old testament figures who had faith. He is saying that they did not receive the promise in their faith.
Likewise David has not received the promise of heaven:
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Now here's the thing. All of these people knew the Lord. But all of these people were also sinners, they were under the death penalty for sin. The sacrifice of Christ DID take away the penalty for sin, but these people ARE NOT in heaven. They're in their graves waiting for the return of Christ. That is when they will come to glory:
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now Mary is in the same boat. She WAS a sinner. She knew and accepted the Lord. BUT her sin could not be atoned for UNTIL the sacrifice of Christ. And she's STILL in the grave waiting the return of Christ to be resurrected to glory.
The simple fact is that Christ’s grace can be applied to anyone he chooses to do so. He is sovereign and all powerful.
"Grace" can be applied, but being in God's grace is different than having your sins atoned for by the death of Christ. No sins were atoned for until Christ died on the cross. This is fundamental Christianity. And being sinless is impossible for any human being even with indwelling of Christ. Only deity's are sinless which is probably why people think you guys consider Mary a deity to be worshiped.
Wrong. You lied about what I believe and what I said.
The religion moderator would say at this point "Discuss the issues all you want but don't make it personal". I don't appreciate you repeatedly calling me a liar. I may disagree with your position and I may misunderstand your position, but characterizing my statements as "lies" is ascribing a motive to my character that just isn't there. You're being quite rude and insulting and I'm doing my best to keep the conversation at a respectful level. I would appreciate the same consideration.
You wrote:
“There’s no difference between “before” and “without” in this context.”
Yes, actually the two words are entirely different in this context. “Before” is about time and “Without” is about method. Time and method are not the same thing. I can’t believe you are reduced to saying two entirely different words mean the same thing.
“If you think Mary was sinless “before” Christ sacrificed then you think Mary was sinless “without” the sacrifice of Christ.”
No. Mary was saved by Christ. When His sacrifice happened is not related to its power or effect. The TIME of His sacrifice in no way reduced His ability to save.
“If the sacrifice didn’t happen yet, then it didn’t happen.”
Again, when it happened has no impact on Christ for He transcends time and space. He is GOD, in case you didn’t know.
“If I didn’t go to the store yet, then eggs still got in my refrigerator without me going to the store.”
You’re not God. God transcends time and space. You don’t.
“Just because you believe the eggs got there magically doesn’t mean I have to buy into your belief.”
God’s power is not magical. See what you are reduced to? To thwart the power of God you are reduced to making up silly analogies - all wrong - that claim God’s power is magic. How sad for you.
“No and again this is where you err because you don’t know the scriptures. Scriptures says that they haven’t received the promise of eternal life...YET.”
Yet? As in 2008? You’re claiming that they’re not in heaven yet? You’re making less and less sense.
Also, Acts points out that David did not ascend into heaven. Only Christ did. Your idea that the patriarchs are not in heaven is simply bizarre and completely out of touch with reality. You offer no scriptural support either since none of the verses you cite actually say what you claim.
“Now Mary is in the same boat. She WAS a sinner. She knew and accepted the Lord. BUT her sin could not be atoned for UNTIL the sacrifice of Christ. And she’s STILL in the grave waiting the return of Christ to be resurrected to glory.”
No. Mary was saved by Christ’s grace at her conception. His sacrifice was so momentous that it helped her even before Christ’s birth into the world. Christ was all powerful.
The simple fact is that Christ’s grace can be applied to anyone he chooses to do so. He is sovereign and all powerful.
“The religion moderator would say at this point “Discuss the issues all you want but don’t make it personal”. I don’t appreciate you repeatedly calling me a liar.”
Yet what I said was irrefutable. I said one thing and you deliberately claimed I said something entirely different. Now you’re claiming both statements mean the same thing when they clearly can not mean the same thing.
“I may disagree with your position and I may misunderstand your position, but characterizing my statements as “lies” is ascribing a motive to my character that just isn’t there.”
Then why would claim something that is categorically untrue? I said one thing and you claimed I said something entirely different. No matter how offended you claim to be it is still true.
“You’re being quite rude and insulting and I’m doing my best to keep the conversation at a respectful level. I would appreciate the same consideration.”
I am not being rude in the least. Again, I said one thing and you DELIBERATELY said I said something I never said. Now you’re claiming the two statements are the same thing when they are not. As soon as you DELIBERATELY claimed I said something I never said, any hope of this being a “conversation at a respectful level” was dashed. Why claim I said something I never, EVER, said?