Posted on 04/15/2008 8:02:36 PM PDT by annalex
Second, one comes to Christ at the moment of death whether he had believed in Him or not. That is because Christ is doing the judging, no one else. What Christ’s judgement will be will depend on what the dying will do at that point. Many, we hope, if their soul was conditioned by good works of natural law, will be ready to embrace Him then.
The judgement, it doen’t say when it will happen (many believe after the book of revelations (the appocalypse).
But that isn’t true, by then it will be too late. One MUST decide before they die.
Secondly Christ Himself claimed that HE is the ONLY way! As much as we feel for non-Christians we MUST pray for them, and wittness of Christs love for them. If they reject Him, well then that’s their Choice, and God wouldn’t be just at letting them (not being covered by the sacrifice-purfied- that Christ shed on the cross) into His Holy Domain (Heaven). Only those that place their faith in Christ will be saved, and it isn’t by “good works of natural law” as much as we would wish it so. It is ONLY by faith, that’s all...it’s too simple, but then again it’s not!
There are two judgements, the parcitular judgement that occurs at the time of death of each human being, and then the Judgement Day at the end of times when the world is judged as a whole.
You seem to argue the point that no one is disputing. Christ is the sovereign judge of both judgements; if a non-Christian is ever saved, it is by Christ alone, and yes, it is only possible if the non-believer accepts Christ at the last moment of his life. This is a very intimate moment when a man is judged by Christ, which may justify a life of unbelief. The good works according to natural law do not sway the judgement unless the conversion to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ occurs by the movement of the free will. An example of such good works of the natural law and last moment conversion is the Good Thief on the cross.
I am a Christian, non-Catholic so I can’t nor will discuss Cathoic terminology. I would like to let this converation be between those that love Christ, in Kindness and love. You stated “An example of such good works of the natural law and last moment conversion is the Good Thief on the cross”. This was not by human works, but by his FAITH in Christ alone, it was God’s work, not man’s that saved both he and us.
My point in this discussion is that non-Christians (those whom do not recieved Christ’s forgivness becuase they aren’t willing to give up controll of their lives..will not be “saved” by Christ at the judgement of their souls. It may not be PC, but is the truth!
The Good Thief did everything the Church requires of him while not knowing it. He defended an innocently accused, he repented of his sin, he suffered for it, he acknowledged Christ's kingship, and he asked Christ for mercy. It is, indeed the Divine Grace that enabled the Good Thief to do all this work. The Good Thief worked out his salvation because he chose to. The Bad Thief chose not to. Christ loves both.
“he asked Christ for mercy.”-bingo that’s exactly what he did, and that’s all he had to do!
None of the other “works” were necessary.
I guess if you want to respond and say somthing similar to the last two posts, then we ought to end this post now (not because I don’t like you, becuase I do, but becuase it is pointless, we will just be going in circles..
ALL I Have to say: And this I will end with is: Scripture claims that we are saved “by faith, through grace”..that’s all that’s necessary as far as I can see, and since God didn’t say we have to have works sanctioned by the Church to be saved, I’ll stick with The Word (of God). I emplore you in love to reread those passages that talk about faith in Christ being sufficient, I think mostly in the epistles by St. Paul. ;-). God Bless, -Jeremy.
I don’t think picking one verse out of the Bible and ignoring the rest of it because, hey, that’s all that’s necessary, — is an adequate plea for mercy.
The gospel tells us what the Good Thief did for a reason. The reason is to lead us to salvation.
It’s like some bibles just don’t have the Epistle of St. James.
Or the book of Matthew, or the finishing chapters of every epistle of St. Paul, or...
Remove the call to obedience to the Gospel from the scripture and you have a few verses left without context.
No, dear boy, your argument is BS. Like all Protestants you try to solve the issue by taking a single verse out of context of the whole Bible.
The facts are that Paul ministered to both Gentiles and Jews, witness the references throughout the New Testament of his teaching in synagogues, as well as his having his disciple Timothy circumsized to placate the Jews he would be working with (or did you just conveniently "forget" those facts).
Obviously, Peter did the same, since he was the one who started the ministry to the Gentiles in the first place.
Well surely then you can explain what the context of these verses is...
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Yeah...you and your heretic cult need to repent and embrace the true and living God!
Repent of praying to God?
10 And when the multitudes had seen what Paul had done, they lifted up their voice in the Lycaonian tongue, saying: The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men; 11 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter: but Paul, Mercury; because he was chief speaker. 12 The priest also of Jupiter that was before the city, bringing oxen and garlands before the gate, would have offered sacrifice with the people. 13 Which, when the apostles Barnabas and Paul had heard, rending their clothes, they leaped out among the people, crying, 14 And saying: Ye men, why do ye these things? We also are mortals, men like unto you, preaching to you to be converted from these vain things, to the living God, who made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them: 15 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 16 Nevertheless he left not himself without testimony, doing good from heaven, giving rains and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. 17 And speaking these things, they scarce restrained the people from sacrificing to them.(Acts 14)
When you see us offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to Sts Paul and Barnabas, let me know.
Sell your tripe somewhere else.
This is a debate forum, Religion section. Where do you suggest I offer Catholic doctrines up for debate?
Please consult a Bible Lexicon/Dictionary or even a Topical index...Prayer is offered up as a sacrifice to the Throne of God! How dare we offer this to mortals dead or alive! Im done here, you can respond if you like but it will be for not.
There is no Holy Sacrifice of the Mass...No one can offer God as a sacrifice other than God...
You can perform a ritual but I can't imagine God being too pleased about it...
Praying to dead people will be no more effective than praying to me...Your dead 'saints' are no more closer to God than I, or any other born-again Christian...
If you have a substantive objection based on the lexicon or anything else, please present it and I’ll be happy to look into that.
Praying to dead people will be no more effective than praying to me
"A prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much",-- James 5, I believe.
Nor did Paul have a different gospel for Gentiles. In fact, the whole point of the early chapters of Romans is that Gentiles and Jews are saved under exactly the same plan and the same rules. Nobody is saved apart from grace.
Read Paul again if you don't believe me. Start with Galatians 3 and Ephesians 3:1-6.
This is true, BTW, which why the real Priest who offers the Mass is Christ himself. That's Catholic doctrine.
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