The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

Born King of the Jews, not Head of the Church.

“Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.” (Matthew 2:2)

Died King of the Jews, not Head of the Church.

“And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.” (Luke 23:38)

Disciples did not preach the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ in their commission while Christ was on Earth, because they did not understand it, and the intent of it was his from them.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
“For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
“And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
“And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” (Luke 18:31, 34)

The first time our Lord discussed His sufferings with his disciples was Matthew 16:21ff, and they did not understand it.

The disciples (the Twelve Apostles and other Seventy) had already been out preaching a message of a Kingdom to come, but that message did not include the subject of the Messiah's sufferings, because they did not understand it, and it was hid from them.

The ministry of the Twelve during the earthly ministry could not have been the same as their Acts period ministry. After the Ascension was when they fully understood the sufferings, and all doubt was gone.

Resurected and Ascended to be the Head of the Church. "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, "Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (Ephesians 1"18-23) During Christ's final appearances after His Resurrection, some still doubted. (Matthew 28:17; etc.)

Christ Himself defined His earthly ministry.

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

That was His commission. “NOT SENT BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

“Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
“And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.” (Romans 15:8, 9)

God's intent to bless both Abraham's seed and the Gentiles was made known at the very same time (Genesis 12:3); and this well-known fact is constantly referred to in the Old Testament. See Genesis 22:18; 26:4; Deuteronomy 32:8; Psalm 18:49; 67:1, 2; 72:17; 117:1; Isaiah 11:10; 49:6; Luke 2:32; Romans 15:8-12.

The Gentiles are not the Church. As Israel was blessed, so would be the Gentile nations. As Israel declined, the opportunities for the Gentiles to know the true and living God also faded.

Had Israel received their Messiah, the benefits of this would have flowed to the world. Israel should have, and could have received Christ. That nation would then have been the evangelistic entity to carry the message to the remainder of the world. There is no knowledge of the Body of Christ propounded in Isaiah 15:9. It is consistent with the priority stature of Israel and the blessing or consequences to the Gentiles. The Church which is Christ's Body is not the subject there.

Reading Acts chapters 2 through seven, and reading carefully through every sermon by any Apostle or preacher there, will reveal exactly who the audience was in every case. At no time did any Apostle address any crowd except “Israel,” “the house of Israel,” or “Ye men of Israel.”

All occurrences (e.g. Pentecost and the special manifestations there) have nothing that is not already consistent with the Old Testament prophecy for Israel. The Apostles were preaching to Israel about things that were to occur for Israel under the condition of repentance as a nation.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)

“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: . . . “(Acts 2:22)

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)

“And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?” (acts 3:12)

“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, . . . (Acts 4:8)

“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.” (Acts 4:10)

“For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, . . .” (Acts 4:27)

“And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.” (Acts 5:21)

“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:31)

“And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.” (Acts 5:35)

“And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.” (Acts 7:23)

“This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.” (Acts 7:37)

“Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?” (Acts 7:42)

The entire seven chapters appear to be a continuation of the Gospels. The target population is the Nation of Israel and its leaders, and it is an offer being made to them of restoration and forgiveness, along with the reestablishment of their Davidic economy.

The major difference in the message between the Gospels and the Acts is the truth of a crucified, buried, and resurrected Messiah — READY TO RETURN in their generation if they would repent, according to Acts 3:19-26.

[No problem, we will just call Mary a common human being, leaving Christ as the only person born a fully human one.(according to your lofty theological distinctions)]

How is that? That would be better. I don't understand why you leave out Adam and Eve.

Because we are not discussing man's original perfection, we are discussing Mary as a sinful human being, like the rest of mankind AFTER the Fall.

I don't know why such sarcastic anger has to be expressed (your lofty theological distinctions) about an important distinction.

It was a distinction that did nothing to to clarify the issue of Mary's status as a sinner.

But the fact that the distinction is at once real and important on the one hand and scoffed at on the other pretty much demonstrates the futility or at least the unpleasantness of addressing the other points you raise. It's as though those who prefer to do brain surgery with a 4 lb. hammer blame their failures on those who suggest more delicate instruments.

And again, the fact that you will not deal with Mary shows that you are trying to send up smoke to evade the REAL issue.

Christ was the only one born sinless and thus 'perfectly human', Mary wasn't.

Christ is the second Adam, Mary is NOT the second Eve.

When miscommunication happens, it seems the useful thing to do is to go over what was said and identify the problem. Another thing to do is to scoff at the person you're talking to. It's not useful, it's not charitable, but it's done and done a lot.

It was you who made a comment regarding warfare and understanding one's limitations.

So, save the 'poor me, I am so misunderstood' routine.

Your comments had nothing to do with the subject, which was Mary's humanity.

If, as it appears, that's the game you want to play, deal me out.

And if you want to attempt to evade the issue and put up theological smoke screens, you are going to get nailed for it.

Mary was a sinner, and your definition for a 'perfect human being' in light of the Fall, would certainly refer to Christ as the Second Adam, but not to Mary, who was born a sinner and needed a saviour like every child of Adam (which Christ wasn't.)

[The Bible is the recorded Word of the Living God.]

This is simply false. The Bible as we know it is a direct result of the efforts and actions of the RCC.

Umm... there's this whole part called the "Old Testament", which the RCC certainly had no participation in. I would also point out that I find RCC claims to apostolic succession to be dubious at best, and even were it so, it does not make the Scriptures yours.

One does not "diminish" a thing by using it as it was intended. Rather, using the Bible, which Christ did not establish, to diminish the authority of the Church, which Christ DID establish, is nothing more that a byzantine replay of The Fall.

The Bible does not diminish the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, nor do Protestants. The Roman Catholic Church diminishes itself.

The Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. The same goes for the Bible.

Yes, y'all felt the need to change the Sabbath too. I don't believe that was what was proper, or intended by Christ, in either case.

The Church prospered prior to the advent of the printing press [...]

Prospered by the weight of her boot on the neck of kings and peasants alike. Prospered by the sword and by the stake. That assuredly is *not* what Christ intended:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(e-Sword: KJV)

Luther may be accused of lighting the match (not really, Protestants go well back before him), but the printing press was the grass fire of Protestantism. That is what allowed Berean principles to assert themselves. It was the proof, you see, proof that the RCC had not taught what God had actually said.

[...] and it's [RCC's] existence does not now, nor has it ever, depended on a collection of documents; the Protestant rebellion however, does.

ROTFLOL! Do you think that if one could somehow stuff the genie of the printing press back in the proverbial bottle that the Protestants would come meekly back to Rome? Not now, not ever. We can certainly revert to verbal tradition (in the proper sense), just as easily as the Catholics can. Protestants will come, no doubt, but it is to Jerusalem that they will go. We will bow before the throne of Christ, not the throne of Rome.

Is it your position that Christ would change a single word that came before Him?

I don't understand the relevance of the question, particularly as a response to my assertion the Bible is not a living entity. If God was against Baal, Ashtoreth, and Tammuz; If He found it absolutely disgusting throughout the entirety of the Old Testament; If His anger rose up in Him against Israel for incorporating paganism into His Temple, why, oh why would the RCC adopt it into herself?

This picture shows a statue of Peter in St Peter's Basilica, whose toes have been nearly been rubbed clean off by millions upon millions of Catholic lips kissing his feet. KISSING THE FOOT OF A STATUE OF A MAN! What part of this escapes you guys?

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It is the apparent irreverence for the Holy Word which troubles me so, and it seems to be your assertion that it is "but a book" that allows you to act so cavalierly.

No, it's my position He instituted a Church with attendant authority and hierarchy to be His voice on Earth, not a book. Men would not abide by that so they gathered up their intellectual jewels and built themselves a philosophical golden calf.

Bah! We do not bow down to the Bible, nor do we serve it. we neither kiss it, or light candles about it, nor lay it in a bed of flowers. We consider it Holy for what it contains, we search it always, eagerly, even as the Bereans did to find out if "what it says is true"... We await it's revelations of God's prophecies coming true in our time. We seek out the words of our Father, our Lord and His apostles, to do as they have told us to do.

That does not include kissing Peter's statue's toe. that does not include bowing and praying to Mary or other dead people. That does not include falling prostrate before the pope, a mere man, and sinful creature, nor does it include suckin' on his ring. That is the way of calumny and confusion.

Pleading is not rebelling. It is the sin of the Reformation that they did not heed the witness of a David, but rather rebelled with the slander of an Absalom.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
(e-Sword: KJV)

Now that's some living Word if I've ever heard it!

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