Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
False traditions of mistaken men.
***False traditions of mistaken men.***
The brightest angel has his greatest disciples amongst the followers of Calvin.
Again, I challenge you to provide verse that proves predestination to hell. I will bet that you cannot.
ROTFLOL! Your method of debate is pretty clear to anyone reading these posts, Mark.
I posted the Scripture verses you requested in post 5,447. That you do not understand those Scripture verses is not within my ability to remedy. Illumination is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Pray for it.
All the verse that you posted did not even mention hell or its equivalent.
You have proven nothing. None of the verse that you posted means anything regarding predestination to hell.
Don’t blame the Holy Spirit - unless you want to condemn the Reformed Holy Spirit who has led you astray.
You’re keeping strange company these days. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
That's making it personal, Mark. Please refrain from breaking the rules.
Yes, men are known by their fruit. Do you understand what Christ is saying here? He's saying that a good tree will produce good fruit and a corrupt tree will produce evil fruit.
Did you plant yourself as a good tree, Mark? Or did God create you and plant you and give you everything you have, including your desire to love Christ?
No man can love God unless first that man has been born again by the Holy Spirit. And that is a supernatural work of God, a free, unmerited, merciful gift to His family whom He has loved before they loved Him.
lol. Good for the blood pressure.
***Yes, men are known by their fruit. Do you understand what Christ is saying here? He’s saying that a good tree will produce good fruit and a corrupt tree will produce evil fruit.***
If one lies about another person, that is evil fruit.
***Did you plant yourself as a good tree, Mark? Or did God create you and plant you and give you everything you have, including your desire to love Christ?***
Without the Grace of God, we are nothing.
***And that is a supernatural work of God, a free, unmerited, merciful gift to His family whom He has loved before they loved Him.***
Gen 1:
26
4 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28
God blessed them, saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.”
29
God also said: “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food.” And so it happened.
31
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good.
God created all Creation and he found it very good.
Sorry I was on vacation at the time and couldn't spend time reading this one.
The wicked are born wicked
Psalm 9:17
they are sent to Hell
AMEN!
Salvation is of the Lord.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." -- John Owen
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
God is not the author of their wickedness.
No, God is not. But the malevolent god created by Cauvin certainly is.
Psalms 9[17] The Lord is revealed in this divine rule: God has so made the universe that the wicked are punished by the very actions they perform.
No predestination to hell; only Judgement for one’s deeds.
***No, God is not. But the malevolent god created by Cauvin certainly is.***
The creation of God in one’s own image, kept on the hall stand and you rub His head for luck when you walk by.
Either you have the Church or else you don’t. You accept what Jesus said or else you don’t.
Interesting theologies of what has developed from the Reformation today; what will these develop to?
That's Oprah's gospel
the Tanach has it in Hebrew, Hashem became known through the judgment that He executed,
not some mindless karmic universe, lol, lol, lol
Nothing about hell.
Really? Where do you think a vessel fitted to destruction will end up, especially in light of the fact it's being contrasted to a "vessel of mercy?"
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"
Nothing about hell.
Really? Where is it that some men are not appointed to? Do men who are not appointed to God's mercy but appointed to God's wrath end up in heaven?
"being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
Even this bad translation of the KJV says nothing about hell, only that those who are not obediant to God will stumble against Jesus.
Read the verse again, Mark. It doesn't say men will stumble; it says some men were "appointed" to stumble.
"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." — Proverbs 16:4
Let us go to the NAB for commentary: The favorable or unfavorable result of chance depends on God. Deciding strifes and doubts by lot was practiced by the ancient Hebrews
LOL. I haven't the foggiest notion of what that means. Unlike the actual words of the Proverb which seem entirely clear.
God's in control of His creation, Mark. That's not something to rebuke or fear. That's very good news.
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." -- Acts 17:26-28
"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us" -- 2 Corinthians 1:9-10"And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Have you been delivered "from so great a death?" Did God ordain that deliverance from before the foundation of the world, or was it a spur-of-the-moment, yet still prudent idea on your part?
“Shoehorned in to Scripture” is not the same as “in Scripture.” One is fake, the other is not.
C’mon Eckleburg, you know he thinks “ the Universe” will send them to Purgatory, and they all get a second chance, lol, lol
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