Replies

No, it is blasphemy to say that being 'fully human' means being a 'perfect human' which Christ was, and that Mary was as 'fully human' as Christ was, which is what the RCC teaches.

Nobody has EVER suggested that the Blessed Virgin Mary was "perfect" and I challenge you to show otherwise.

The 'fully human' definition as being sinless is from one of your fellow RCC posters, it is not mine.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. The immaculate state of Mary's soul does not make her "perfect" or "divine" in any way.

Please tell me, what does the phrase, "Blessed art thou AMONG women mean to you"?

To muddy the waters: I said that sinners are not fully human. I mean that we are not as God intended us to be.

For example, because of concupiscence, a big chunk of our energy is spent resisting impulses to intemperance or whatever. That is energy we could have used for thought or prayer or concentration generally. And concupiscence is strong enough that we make lousy choices, yielding our "subjective principle of volition" (Kant) to desire without consideration of the outcome or the relationship between the particular act and our lives as a whole. That's not what God had in mind, I suggest. So we are not fully human.

Mary is without sin, therefore she is fully human. It is not wrong to say she is "perfect" in that limited respect.

It IS wrong to say she is absolutely perfect. A sinless baby would be, with respect to being a baby, perfect. But she still has to learn to walk, talk, and do other age appropriate stuff. The thought experiment "perfect baby" still has further perfection to gain. "perfect" is a word that has to be used carefully, I think and with an awareness of nuance.

Slash and burn theologians will use it poorly.

[No, it is blasphemy to say that being 'fully human' means being a 'perfect human' which Christ was, and that Mary was as 'fully human' as Christ was, which is what the RCC teaches.]

Nobody has EVER suggested that the Blessed Virgin Mary was "perfect" and I challenge you to show otherwise.

The RCC teaches that Mary was born sinless and lived sinless.

What do you consider perfect?

[ The 'fully human' definition as being sinless is from one of your fellow RCC posters, it is not mine.]

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. The immaculate state of Mary's soul does not make her "perfect" or "divine" in any way.

If Mary was born without sin and lived without sin, she would be as perfect as Christ.

So, it is not only the immaculate conception, but the fact that Mary was suppose to have lived sinless as well.

Please tell me, what does the phrase, "Blessed art thou AMONG women mean to you"?

It means she was blessed among women, she was chosen to bear the Messiah, who would die for HER sins, that she committed in life like anyone else.

Note the expression, 'among women', she was not blessed above all mankind!

She was blessed in being able to do something only a woman can do, bear children.

Do you agree that she sinnned as a human being?

Nobody has EVER suggested that the Blessed Virgin Mary was "perfect" and I challenge you to show otherwise.

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. (emphasis added)

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed3.html#MARY

Challenge met.