Posted on 06/18/2008 10:39:26 AM PDT by mnehring
I believe I will be awake on Sept 29, watching and waiting for my Lord.
Regarding time zones, where do you thing it will begin, or will it happen everywhere at once?
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS THANKS.
If you think about it a minute, if the Rapture started in one time zone and went around the world, a Fox News junkie might get a tip off at 3 am that people are disappearing and be able to repent at the last minute. I think to be a "Thief in the Night", you might want it to be a surprise to everyone.
Course, Fox News may lose all their viewers and CNN take the top spot when we leave. Who knows?
Oh, my. So many questions.
I can't start, I'd be here all night, but I reserve the right to ask you questions, later, that is, if you agree and accept to participate.
:-)
Honey do’s?
OK, Thanks.
What’s the meaning of all the threads with (open) at the end of the title?
It means they're open ended.
:>)
(couldn't resist)
LOLOL!
if the Rapture started in one time zone and went around the world, a Fox News junkie might get a tip off at 3 am that people are disappearing and be able to repent at the last minute.
Why would that be a problem? Doesn't God want as many souls as possible? Even if one is a Fox News employee?
In fairness, I must warn you that I might be one of those unbelievers you refer to in post #18.
:-)
Of course He wants as many souls as possible, but being Raptured has nothing to do with being "saved". Being Raptured just means you won't be a "child of God's Wrath". Bad things happen to "good" people all the time, but during the Tribulation, the whole Earth will experience the displeasure of God Himself. Judgment Day will be at the end of a 7 year period of Plagues and Disasters from God Himself. A dying world has problems daily, but the End Times will be from His hand personally.
As a person "left behind", you will have the same punishment as with the unbelievers. The parables about the wise and foolish virgins pretty much sums it up. They are all virgins, ergo Christians. The problem lies in that the foolish ones hadn't done anything with their free gift from God. They will be left behind and a reference is made to "Buy and Sell" meaning the Mark of the Beast will be required to live. There are several parables about these times and the Rapture. Look for talk of a "Wedding" as this will be the time Jesus takes His Bride. Look also for parables about servants. Each one tells of the Master being gone and returning to find His servants not doing what they were instructed. Even the parable of "Talents" refers to the servant that buries his money having it taken away. It's not talking of money. As a Christian, you can't take the Mark without offending God. It will be a time that Christians will be required with their lives and families to pick their Master. You cannot serve 2 masters any longer. Jesus said, "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father." You can't take the Mark without denying Jesus, so you will live as a fugitive, or die as a martyr, or give in totally to the Beast.
As far as you being an "unbeliever", do you mean you aren't a Christian or don't believe in the Rapture? If you aren't a Christian, I don't think I can help you with Spiritual unbelief without the Holy Spirit calling you to life. If you are a Christian that has questions about the Rapture, then we can at least agree on some things. A study of Jewish Feasts will be required though. Jesus died on Passover, was buried on Unleavened Bread, and rose on First Fruits. The Holy Spirit was given on Pentecost. All these Feast days told of Divine appointments from God. The final 3 Feast days will be fulfilled soon with the Rapture of the Church on Trumpets, Judgment Day on Yom Kippur and The Return of Christ to rule and reign on Tabernacles. Figuring out WHEN this will happen is the key. As Bible believers, we are children of light, not darkness, so you CAN know when they will occur, but it requires getting off the milk and on to the meat.
Oh, my.
That was a ‘moving’ reply.
I’d like to thank you for taking the time to put so much thought into it.
1/Aren’t the raptured one the ones who ‘are’ saved? They are spared the suffering of the tribulation, right?
2/Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?
3/Why does (Organized religion, Christian) God not want to offer his love to me (his child/creation), without asking for blind faith? The Nigerian scam artists ask for blind faith, and I don’t believe them either.
There are parts of the bible that tell me to look, and see.
4/I won’t take a mark. I’ll die/go home first.
5/Unbeliever
I can, and have prayed.....until I was blue in the face.
God, (however you choose to describe Him/It,) may observe us, but doesn’t interfere with our little follies.
Possibly, we agreed to ‘learn the lessons’ we agreed to work on.
I bet I’m upsetting you now.
I don’t mean to.
It’s just that the God many FReepers speak of, seams full of vengeance.
If there is a God, I really don’t think he hates me.
The math and science of the end of the world has fascinated me since I watched my first Star Trek.
You know, the real one, with Captain Kirk.
:-)
Chuckles, thank you for being willing to engage in this subject with me.
Naturally. ;-)
seams = seems
I will make quick answers here, but dwell on the thought because I'm not being flip about it, but time and typing is tight.
1: Salvation and Rapture are 2 different things. The main reason I even posted here was to make this distinction. Many Christians think because they made a profession when they were 9, they will go at Rapture. They may or may not be saved if they said a prayer and got wet, but did their heart change? Is their a difference in their life? These are important distinctions to God. The Bible makes many distinctions between "lukewarm", "wide paths", "wise and foolish" , etc. I can't judge a person's salvation, but I can judge sin. If your life is full of sin and you claim Christ, maybe you just bought some "fire insurance when you were baptized as a child. The verses I referred to about the parables are distinctions of people that DO the Word of God, vs, lukewarm talkers. It's very possible that you could be saved as a Christian and not bound for Hell, but you have no works, no "Treasure in Heaven", no change in your life. It's possible that you could be "left behind" and actually realize the Rapture happened because you had heard of it, but your life is indistinguishable from lost people, so you get left behind as a foolish virgin. You only way out then will be to suffer for the sake of Christ. A third of the population will die in the Tribulation, so we are talking about 2 billion in today's numbers. The Bible talks of the martyred asking God how long will they have to wait for vengeance because they died for Christ in the Tribulation, so there will be salvation's during the Tribulation. The parables usually refer to the foolish or unwise servants having their portion with the unbelievers. That just means Christians that have been left behind.
2: Short answer: God is sovereign. He is the potter, we are the clay. He can do what He wants with anyone. He explains that none are good, no not one. If none are good, why would we expect anything from God. There is a whole Bible study on the sovereignty of God. Many can't accept that fact, so they are still in rebellion. God killed every man woman and child on earth except 8 members on the Ark. He destroyed 2 cities, men, women, and children, dogs and cats for their sin. Who are we to say God can't destroy what he has created? These are hard sayings for lost people because they feel they have some hidden worth and God doesn't have the right to own them. That's where we get into terms like Lord, and God, and such. Being in a Republic, we think we have rights. We don't remember the days of Kings and Lords where we lived and died on his whim. The main thing to remember is our lives here on earth are but a blink in time compared to the eternity God speaks of. If you live 5 years and die of cancer, so what? God has a much better plan for you if you trust Him. This life is nothing. We are aliens here. We belong with Him.
3: I don't have "blind faith". He has proven Himself to me over and over. To make a long story short, if you aren't saved, you haven't seen. The worry should be that you haven't seen, but most lost people worry more about me being crazy than their own salvation. I've personally witnessed miracles and have heard His voice. He has told me things I couldn't know otherwise. To a lost person and even to some Christians, their eyes start to get wide about now. If I told you all the miracles I've seen it would make no difference to you because you have no faith and call it luck. My mother in law had a terminal disease and was dying and was cured overnight by a prayer. I've asked for protections and got them and on an on, but if it's never happened to you, I don't expect you to believe it. It was for me, not you. Being saved doesn't get you a Santa filling a wish list, but not being saved leaves you at the mercy of the world. The Bible says it rains on the saved and unsaved, so if you are a farmer you get rain when it rains even if you aren't saved.
4: Be sure you know your heart before you say what you would do or not. You need God's Grace and strength to face death willingly. Explore you feelings if they had your child or spouse about to behead him/her and demanding you take the mark. I don't say these things lightly, but if won't be a "normal" time then. As a young man, I had a .38 pointed at my skull by a guy on drugs. I would have probably done whatever he asked to live at that time. You hear alot of talk, esp here on FR, but only a few that have been under fire actually KNOW what it's like to face violent death in reality.
The God some Freepers talk of here is the God of the Bible. He isn't full of vengeance yet. He has given His complete loving Grace to protect and prosper us. He is also a God of justice. We are sinners, He sent His Son as a sacrifice to cleanse us, and some haven't accepted His free gift. They come to Him on their own righteousness. That is where the term self righteous comes from. If you are the least bit worried that you aren't perfect( as He requires perfection to enter into His Gates), then consider His offer to substitute Jesus for your judgment. I can't save an unsaved person, no one can. Only the Holy Spirit can call your name and make you alive to God. Just by you having this conversation with me indicates you are prompted to salvation by the Spirit. As a dead person, you can't hear, see, or think of any Spiritual thing. When we died in the Garden, we lost our Spirit and connection with our Creator. The Holy Spirit comes into you and explains things that only God can transmit to you. If the Spirit doesn't live in your heart, you cannot and will not understand any Spiritual thing. God is Spirit, so we are separated from Him and dead to Him. The people that do not see miracles or hear God speak to them, may have a Spirit problem, not that the other guy is crazy. It's like looking a light in a different way. Maybe light is just the absence of dark. What is the speed of dark? Does a light bulb emit light or just suck dark from the room? You have to be able to see things differently to know God. His ways are not our ways and His ways are higher than ours. If you always want it to make sense in the worldly way, you cannot understand a supernatural God. The "blind faith" you spoke of earlier is just a trust that He has your best interest at heart, even if you are dying of cancer. I have no doubt in His being, I just have faith that He loves me and means me no harm. When I'm dead, all this trouble and woe will be forgotten and I will have eternal paradise. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
PS. As far as unanswered prayer goes, we all have prayers that seem to remain unanswered. His answer maybe NO, or NOT NOW, or You are praying for something that is not in MY will for you. If you are unsaved, God only hears one prayer. The prayer you say when you repent of your sin, accept Jesus as Savior, and dedicate your life to service to God. Why would He hear a prayer from someone who hates Him?( Yes, God is a black and white God. You either hate Him or love Him in His eyes) Your either saved or lost, good or evil, His or Satan's. If you have accepted Jesus, then all He can see in you is His Son. He CAN'T SEE ANY OF YOR SINS ANYMORE!! You are perfected in His eyes. When Jesus hung on the cross, He accepted all your sins, even the ones you will do tomorrow. You are completely cleansed.
If Osama came and asked you for money or a place to stay would you give it to him out of Christian grace, or use a .45 230 grn HP to get him off your doorstep? See, God is better to you than you are to a stranger.
Hi Chuckles.
Thanks for your reply.
1/ “Salvation and Rapture are 2 different things.”
Agreed. We are all saved because ‘this’ reality is only temporary.
What I meant to ask/say was, when the rapture happens, will all the chosen souls go home before the real trouble starts?
2/”He is the potter, we are the clay. He can do what He wants with anyone. He explains that none are good, no not one. If none are good, why would we expect anything from God.”
I don’t think you give God enough credit.
I am made in the image of God, right?
My children disappoint me occasionally, but I don’t love them any less for it. I sure don’t just give up on them.
2/cont’d
“This life is nothing. We are aliens here. We belong with Him.”
Yes!
3/”To make a long story short, if you aren’t saved, you haven’t seen.”
What if you’ve seen, and are not saved?
I’ve never had a prayer answered, (that I know of), but I’ve been ‘shown’ 3 things, which I won’t detail now.
And every time I need His help the most......nothing.
4/Good point.
I would offer my soul to save my child.
5/>>>>>”As far as you being an “unbeliever”, do you mean you aren’t a Christian or don’t believe in the Rapture? If you aren’t a Christian, I don’t think I can help you with Spiritual unbelief without the Holy Spirit calling you to life. If you are a Christian that has questions about the Rapture, then we can at least agree on some things.” (post #51)
I meant to clarify this for you earlier.
I’m not sure what I believe right now.
Life is like parts in a play, a script we all agree to follow to a certain extent, BUT, the purpose of the game is to develop our souls. Our time here is short, but educational. :-)
6/”Just by you having this conversation with me indicates you are prompted to salvation by the Spirit.”
Yes, He spoke to me once, if that’s what it was.
“The Holy Spirit comes into you and explains things that only God can transmit to you.”
Why can’t God talk to us directly?
Some say he did, in the bible, but I think the bible was written by men, and although it teaches some fundamental truths, I don’t take it literally.
Our real home, as far as I can tell, is a place full of love.
Are there limits? On God?
If so, placed on him by who?
If not, why can’t he just share ‘the good news’ with us more directly?
*Gasp*
LOL, lots of questions.
>>”I have no doubt in His being, I just have faith that He loves me and means me no harm. When I’m dead, all this trouble and woe will be forgotten and I will have eternal paradise. Not a bad deal if you ask me.”
I think everyone gets that, even the sinners.
It’s just that when you get ‘home’, you won’t have as much home work as some others.
;-)
Last one......
“If Osama came and asked you for money or a place to stay would you give it to him out of Christian grace,”
I would not give him money, but would invite him in, and call the RCMP, as soon as I could.
I have no pact with the devil.
I would hope that fighter jets didn’t obliterate my life and my living room, but I would understand if it happened.
This is a wonderful conversation, Chuckles.
I really appreciate your time, and trouble.
2: You were made in His image, why would you not honor Him? He will not strive with you forever. He has asked, begged and sent His Son to die for you. If you are a "hold out" for more, you won't be getting it. In Romans 1, he says everyone is without excuse. Everyone was doomed to Hell from the Garden of Eden. Jesus didn't come to condemn you because you have been condemned forever. He came to save you. If you don't respond, there is no plan "B". Even the most skeptical person believes some are going to Hell. Why do we always think we are going? Jesus is the ONLY way and that is made plain in John 3:16.
3: That should concern you! If you have NO answered prayer, you are separated from God. Not good! Maybe you aren't seeing or hearing what He has done or is doing. He doesn't always give you what you want, but what you need. If just reading this get you to seek Him, prayers are being answered for I have already prayed for you and anyone that reads this. You never know who is watching. His Word never comes back void. Probably #3 should concern you most. It does me.
4: Your soul doesn't belong to you. You can't give it. You can offer your life, but your soul is judged by God. You may die for your children and still end up in Hell because you don't know Jesus. Knowing Jesus as a personal Saviour is EVERYTHING. Your child's soul belongs to God also so he/she could be saved and you still not make it. As a sidetrack to this, abortion is wrong precisely because the child doesn't belong to the mother. It's God's gift to her. The child is on LOAN to the parents and they are judge by what they do to God's property. If we treated our children like a gift from God, would we treat them so harshly? One of the hardest concept to fathom is we will see our loved ones in Heaven and know who they are, but our focus will be Jesus. My daughter and wife will mean just the same as anyone else to me in Heaven. That's hard to believe that my daughter won't have anymore significance than your family member. They all belong to Him and He is the center of the Universe. Our love will be only to Him. He gives you your spouse and your children and He can decide what He wants with either. You could offer your life and go to Hell and your child die anyway and go to Heaven. It's not up to us. We rely on His promises that He will keep them and judge us righteous if we have faith that Jesus is the Christ.5: If you don't know, you aren't a Christian. When you are "born again" it changes you completely. You would be sure. You must be sure! this is too important to just guess. The Bible tell you how to be sure and have confidence that Jesus will be with you always. He is faithful, even unto the death on the cross. The question is always "Are we faithful?"6: God can talk to us directly, I've heard Him. He can also prompt people to tell things and do things. He can make divine appointments etc. He gets done what is necessary for His will to be done. We have trouble listening and watching. Like I said before, we have been cut off Spiritually. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, our link to God, our God living within us. You cannot hear God without the Holy Spirit. You are still dead and dead people can't hear or see a Live God. When the Spirit call you to repent, you will hear and bow your knee to God. Dead people can't do that.
The Bible is literally true and also Spiritually true. The stories actually happened, but their meaning is Spiritual. As an example, I believe without reservation the Flood happened just as Genesis says, but it also proves a constant point that God is looking for people to do what he asks, that He will save you if you repent, and He punishes evil. There are 50 other points to learn about the Flood and how God works, but how can we learn the character of God if we think it is a fable to scare children into doing good? I did a Bible study on Genesis for 11 months. If you look close enough, you don't even need any more books to be saved with just Genesis. The characters are archetypes of Jesus and us and our relationship to Him.
There is nothing to hard for God, so I don't have to have a bunch of scientific theory as to how God did anything. I keep hearing of earthquakes and big winds and all kinds of other theories as to the separation of the Red Sea during Exodus. Why can't we just believe that a God that can create the world can control it? How will anyone explain walking on water or stopping storms with His voice? You come to a point where you are calling God a liar. Jesus preached these same verses in Synagogue. If Jesus is a liar, He isn't sinless and can't save me. God doesn't need an earthquake to separate the water. When, and if you get faith in God, then the Bible will be trustworthy to you. This isn't blind faith. I have witnessed with my own eyes terminal illness cured overnight by prayer, people call me while I'm praying for their call and the phone rings before I say Amen, praying for a new job and got it within a week, etc. I could write a book just on what God has done for me over and over supernaturally.
I think people that don't believe God wrote the Bible haven't read it enough. For me it's like listening to music. The words are beautiful. The wisdom is astounding and perfect. The love and compassion of our God leaps off the pages at me. I spend most of my time weeping in the "good parts". The Holy Spirit is our teacher and we can read the same passage 3 times and get 3 messages from the same passage and all are true. How can you have a book written by many different people over thousands of years all saying the same thing? God loves you and is coming for you. Jesus is in every book. Even the most dry, uninspiring, plain lists of names always points to Jesus. If you have trouble reading the Bible, try a New King James or another version than the King James. I don't like a NIV because some verses are lost in it, but a beginner may need to start there to understand it.
There are limits on God that He has placed on Himself. He doesn't tolerate sin. Have you sinned? If so you cannot dwell with Him. The sinless one is Jesus. You must accept Jesus' sacrifice or you will be judged on you own works. (not good). God created the angels and Lucifer. Lucifer and his demons were angels and are thrown out of heaven and have no salvation. The angels long to look into our salvation. Even the angels can't understand God giving Jesus for creatures created less than angels. The Bible says we will judge the angels. The only way that could happen is we are equal to Jesus in God's eyes. How can our sin be so forgotten? Upon our death, we will be glorified into perfection. When you repent, you are justified, when you live Godly lives, you become sanctified, but when we die, we are glorified and are completed into the beings Gods wants us to be.
PS. Try reading the Bible from Matthew and skip the OT for now. Frankly, I started at Revelation because I wanted to know the ending. Many find it too hard to read so they skip it. Most need to read the letters to the churches if nothing else. I use the New King James because it keeps the beauty of the King James, but is easier to read. If you can get through the Gospels and Acts and Romans, you will have gotten a long way. Timothy tells what a church should look like and the other letters explain more principles and the beginning of the church. If you read Matthew, you will get much of what we have discussed here. Try saying this prayer BEFORE you read. Dear God, please open my eyes and ears to what you want me to learn in this reading. Send your Spirit to teach me it's meaning on my life. Open my heart and write your Word on it so I can live your Word daily. Amen.
Say that prayer and see if your reading becomes more interesting and meaningful. Notice if you stay more interested longer in what it says. Also notice if the phone rings while reading, or you are disturbed by kids or other distractions. That, my friend, is Satan. He noticed you reading the Bible and enjoying it. Satan will fight for your soul, so don't think everything will go smoothly if you wake from your slumber.( read the parable of the seeds planted in different soils. Mat 13:3)
God Bless you and your family.
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