What Is Life/Non-life in Nature?

self | June 23, 2008 | Vanity

[Quix]

Actually,

I think The Lord burned the insult gene out of Angel-Gal some years ago.

Sounds like an eye of the beholder phenomenon, to me.

[Quix]

Those who bet on God and His Word are not disappointed.

We shall see when ALL the data is in.

LOL.

[ahayes]

I think The Lord burned the insult gene out of Angel-Gal some years ago.

I've been on way to many Christian forums to believe that hooey. Many times obnoxiousness is positively correlated with one's perceived relationship with the Lord. I'd much rather debate someone who's smarter than thou than someone who's holier than thou.

[ahayes]

That we will. LOL.

[Quix]

Alamo-Girl is smarter than most hereon but will never write in such a tone. She virtually never to never defends herself.

She never writes in a holier-than-thou tone or attitude because she never feels that way.

Welllll, never that anyone beyond her hubby would know.

Any perceptions otherwise are some sort of problem in the eye of the beholder.

This psychologist may be a bit biased but I’ve known her for many years and have found the above to be always true about her.

[ahayes]

Perhaps you feel that way because you're on her side. To me the above post seems quite condescending. I can do condescending, but if I do I usually try to either do it directly to you or way behind your back, not on the same thread talking to someone else. Unless I'm really ticked. ;-)

[hosepipe]

[ What would be gained from discussing the biblical text??? Shocking! :-D ]

NO.. what would be gained by "wrangling" scripture..

[betty boop]

Wild guess, but this could be due to the fact that Christianity has much greater influence politically in the US than Judaism and Islam.

Well jeepers, some "wild guess" -- of course it does! America is a Christian nation at its root, as is evident if you bother to study our history and founding documents, especially the Declaration of Independence.

Please see my tagline....

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for all of your encouragements and exhortations!

[YHAOS]

”I didn't start the discussion of slavery . . .”

No, I did, as part of my answer to Soliton’s proposition that “Muslims are just as likely to be right as the Jews and Christians.” In suggesting a test of that assertion, I asked who was it, Christian or Moslem, that now eschews slavery and who was it, Christian or Moslem, that lead in the drive to abolish the institution, and who was it that still follows the practice and even defends it. You interjected yourself into the conversation at this point (which is fine - your thoughts are always welcome – but it’s rather poor of you to then complain that you didn’t start the conversation as though that was of some relevance). You wandered about a bit, even suggesting a divertimento presumably in the hopes that I would go galloping down your sidetrack, but, when I didn’t, you could not, in the final analysis, bring yourself to answer the question.

”I didn't start the discussion of how wicked the adherents of a religion can be.”

You Didn’t!? It seems to me that was what your entire message # 498 was all about. We must think that it was, in fact, the sole reason for your participation. You even went so far as to hint that it actually was Charles Darwin who ended slavery in Western Civilization.

”I merely point out the the wickedness of religious adherents is proportional to the amount of worldly power they wield.”

Which thought brings us around to the question of the degree of influence Christianity has had on America, which you haven’t yet answered. Since the collective wisdom de jure is that America is unreservedly and irretrievably evil, then it must be that Christians have had, and do now have, a great hold on the American imagination.

”You implied Christianity confers some special worldly moral force, and I point out this is nonsense.”

Whoa, just a moment. Now you’re suggesting that Christianity has had no influence on America. Decide. A great influence, or no influence at all . . . Oh, wait, I know . . . if it’s something ‘bad,’ blame it on those evil Christians . . . if it’s something ‘good,’ deny that any credit should accrue to Christianity. Then your only problem is to get everyone to agree on what is ‘good’ and what is ‘bad.’

[Soliton]

Some Christians were against slavery, some for it. Some Christians faught to abolish slavery, aome fought for it. Reverend Berkeley, the guy the liberal town is named after, was a Christian apologist for slavery.

It’s funny you chose to compare with Moslems and not Jews. Jews have been responsible for much less death and destruction than Christians. By your logic, their religion would be the true one, and they deny Christ was the messiah.

[Alamo-Girl]

Your distinction between “Adamic” men and “non-Adamic” men is unorthodox and extrabiblical. It is a distinction that the Bible does not make. The word neshamah is used in the Old Testament to refer to any member of the human species (including pagan civilizations such as the Hittites and Canaanites, Deut. 20:16-17) and expanded upon in the Flood account to include any other air-breathing creature. Any other interpretation is simply not in the text. The biblical account does not give any room for such flights of fancy.

I personally eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board, so calling my beliefs “unorthodox” is of no consequence. They are however, altogether Scriptural and are the leanings I have in the Spirit.

As I have testified before, Scriptures are Spiritual per se - they contain the words of God - and therefore, they cannot be discerned like ordinary words. The people Christ is addressing below were physically hearing Him but they could not spiritually hear Him:

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

And again,

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

The significance of earthy genealogies in Scripture begins with Adam and ends with Jesus Christ.

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli, .... [snip] .... Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God. – Luke 3:23-38

And again,

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. – John 4:22

From Genesis to Revelation, the Scriptures are "about" family - God's family. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit who makes each of us Christians alive in Him.

The meaning of life, the purpose of our existence, is not this heaven and earth but the next heaven and earth when we will be gathered as His family to live with Him forevermore.

From Genesis 2 to Christ, the family story centers on Adam and his descendants. The first narrowing of the family was in the Noah Flood where only 8 of the descendants of Adam survived. The next narrowing was in Abraham’s being called. Then Israel.

And to Israel, God promises because they made Him jealous, He would extend His promise to those who were not a people – which is us. That is the prophesy of Christ bringing in the Gentiles as written in the Song of Moses (Deut 32).

They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. – Deuteronomy 32:21

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. – Romans 11:11

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. – John 10:16

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:18-28

Thus the Song of Moses is sung in heaven along with the Song of the Lamb:

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. – Revelation 15:3

Effective with Jesus, God being enfleshed to atone for our sins, the nature of the “family” is no longer narrowed to those who were descendants of Adam, who was a "living soul" because of the breath of God (neshama). Earthy genealogies no longer matter because God's family now consists of those who were born anew by the Spirit as an adopted child of God.

So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. – I Corinthians 15:42-45

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. – John 3:6-7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: - Romans 8:15-16

And thus the old genealogies which were vital to Adamic men do not apply to us Christians because Our Father art in Heaven:

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. - Titus 3:9

Returning now to the term neshama and what it means vis-a-vis the ancient Jewish understanding of soul and spirit and life:

1. nephesh – the will to live, the animal soul, or the soul of all living things which by Jewish tradition returns to the “earth” after death. In Romans 8, this is seen as a whole, the creation longing for the children of God to be revealed.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. - Genesis 1:20

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. - Romans 8:19-22

My musing is that the life which is in an amoeba, anthrax spore, daffodil, fish, etc. is in the physical Creation and not the spiritual Creation. There is not an afterlife for each of these autonomous living biological entities but rather as a whole, there will be a new heaven and new earth.

2. ruach - the self-will or free will peculiar to man (abstraction, anticipation, intention, etc.) – by Jewish tradition, the pivot wherein a man decides to be Godly minded or earthy minded.

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. - Genesis 2:3

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. - Romans 8:5-6

My musing is that this is man's conscience, will and mind which sets him apart from other forms of life. He has a sense of right and wrong and he chooses. Among all of life forms, man chooses to honor or dishonor the dead. And he is especially willful and self-serving.

3. neshama - the breath of God given to Adam (Genesis 2:7) which may also be seen as the “ears to hear” (John 10) - a sense of belonging beyond space/time, a predisposition to seek God and seek answers to the deep questions such as “what is the meaning of life?"

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - Genesis 2:7

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:4-5

My musing is that these are the elect chosen from the foundation of the world. The ones Christ is bringing "home" to be members of His family forevermore. Every man has ruach but not every man has neshama.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

4. ruach Elohim - the Holy Spirit which indwells Christians – the presently existing in the “beyond” while still in the flesh. This is the life in passage : "In him was life, and the life was the light of men..." (John 1)

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[YHAOS]

Me to JS: “The only opinion you’ve expressed is that Christians (and Jews?) are wicked, blood-thirsty wholesale murderers. Moslems would agree with you on that proposition. It must be, then, that you side with the Moslems. So, it looks to be the case that you roam the halls of FR looking for a fight with Christians (and Jews?).”

You: ”Seems to me that focusing angst on Christians is rather typical around here - and "out there" as well.”

The reason is rather basic, I think, and found in an old saw: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” And the angst is directed to what the anti-Christian wants the world’s concept of Christianity to be. It is a propagandist effort.

[Alamo-Girl]

Wild guess, but this could be due to the fact that Christianity has much greater influence politically in the US than Judaism and Islam.

That is certainly true but if that is the reason for the anti-Christianity sentiment I have observed, then obviously the debate is neither intellectual nor academic but rather, it is about earthy power.

And I see you have the "obliquely insult others" Religion Forum shtick down pat.

Thank you, I do try to not make things personal.

And you might have noticed that "insult" is rather built-into theological debate because it seems every time a new belief springs from another one, both sides insult each other as matter of doctrine.

But most importantly, the spirit of anti-Christ is insulted by the words of God Himself.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. - I John 2:22

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying], Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. - Psalms 2:1-5

The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good. - Psalms 14:1

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

It is a propagandist effort.

Indeed!

I apologize, I should have pinged you to my post 634.

[Quix]

What’s condescending?

Is there a thin-skin around?

I’m just relating facts and observations as I’ve experienced them relative to Alamo-Girl . . . her habits, her character etc. as I’ve observed them as a psychologist and as a Christian brother.

If rationalizing my professional opinion as a bias helps your biases—help yourself.

[ahayes]

I personally eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board

Why? Just because something is accepted doctrine or is a traditional interpretation does not mean that it is worthless. It's often quite the opposite. In Christianity many ideas achieved the level of doctrine because they were much debated and consistently shown to be the positions best supported by the Scripture.

As I have testified before, Scriptures are Spiritual per se - they contain the words of God - and therefore, they cannot be discerned like ordinary words.

The trouble is that you are discerning meanings to these words that have not been detected by the majority of Christians at the present time and through the past. Either God is not so good at communicating his thoughts, or he speaks specially to you among many, or you have a creative mind and may draw conclusions that are not really supported.

[Quix]

EXCELLENT, as usual. Thx.

[Quix]

INDEED.

[ahayes]

What’s condescending?

Would you consider a post by a Christian to a non-Christian saying, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God" as condescending? (AG has at least not said this recently, so just speaking in general terms.) If not, I guess there's not much point in talking about this.

If rationalizing my professional opinion as a bias helps your biases—help yourself.

Why should being a psychologist make you less vulnerable to human frailty than others? If that were so, psychiatrists wouldn't ever need psychiatrists.

I've been in the position where a person has been a jerk while arguing on my side and I've overlooked it, only to realize in a different context, hmm, that person really is kind of a jerk. Hopefully I will remember this! :-D