The AP Model and Shannon Theory Show the Incompleteness of Darwin’s ToE

self | January 26, 2009 | Jean F. Drew

[js1138]

Has any living or dead human ever witnessed(observed) birth of a new species?..

Ring species are examples of species formation in progress. It's an illustration of one of the fundamental processes in evolution.

[js1138]

I mean, isn't evolution all about "progress"

I'm rather surprised by this question. You've been around these threads for years and could not possibly be ignorant of this topic. Evolution is change. It is not progress in any commonly used sense of the word.

[doc30]

And yet it appears that living organisms remain living only so long as they are “successfully communicating” information. When that process stops, the organism dies; i.e., becomes subject to the second law of thermodynamics — the consequences of which the now-deceased organism had managed to optimally distance itself from while alive.

Why does the 2nd law of thermodynamics only apply to organisms after they die? Can their information content still be communicated? And why or why not?

[Filo]

This fella continues to insult and malign those he’s arguing with with comments such as the following

Yeah, sorry if I don't submit to the PC dogma. If you're fat, you're fat. If you're stupid, you're stupid. If you're wrong, you're wrong.

ID is wrong and those who buy into it are clearly confused about the difference between science and dogma.

If you're fat and my calling you fat strikes you as an insult then so be it. I could care less, but it would take effort that I'm not willing to grant.

Wrong is wrong no matter how sensitive the wrong people are.

[Alamo-Girl]

I believe I've pinged you asking for observed instances of foreknowledge.

And I have answered your request directly at post 145 by excerpting that section from the original article.

The author cites Michael Ruse’s example of stegosaur plates, that they begin forming in the embryo but only have a function in the adult—supposedly for temperature control.

Off the top of my head, I would put antifreeze proteins on the table - or perhaps drought adaptation in wheat.

Such things occur at the highest level in the AP model.

Achieving autopoiesis from the lower levels remains the best and most important example.

Autopoiesis means automatic creation. The key element in autopoiesis - according to Maturana who coined the term - is autonomy, that an autopoietic system is self-contained or local.

A biological cell is autopoietic, it is self-contained. Wikipedia describes it as follows:

The eukaryotic cell, for example, is made of various biochemical components such as nucleic acids and proteins, and is organized into bounded structures such as the cell nucleus, various organelles, a cell membrane and cytoskeleton. These structures, based on an external flow of molecules and energy, produce the components which, in turn, continue to maintain the organized bounded structure that gives rise to these components. An autopoietic system is to be contrasted with an allopoietic system, such as a car factory, which uses raw materials (components) to generate a car (an organized structure) which is something other than itself (the factory).

The article continues with an interesting contrast in that so many investigators offer self-organizing complexity as the probable cause of the emergence of something new in biological life. A thing becomes different or more than it was, requiring a new term to describe what it “is.” A property becomes evident requiring a new term to describe it, etc.

Self-organizing systems are not autonomous, i.e. autopoetic.

I usually put it this way: that order cannot rise out of chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system. Even at the lowest level, space/time and physical laws are guides to the system. Self-organizing systems have guides. Cellular automata has guides, etc.

Therefore, autopoiesis in a biological cell – which is autonomous and yet obtains for such temporally non-local insight (anticipating, foreknowing or being aware of the need for maintenance and repair) – is the best example.

Or to put it another way, at the lower level there is no local (autonomous) capability to be aware, anticipate or foreknow and thus attain autopoiesis. Temporally speaking (timewise) - that insight is not local.

[hosepipe]

[ Ring species are examples of species formation in progress. It's an illustration of one of the fundamental processes in evolution. ]

Thats a stretch... for an example of how scales became feathers.. How gills became lungs.. or even flowers became eggs.. The simplest explanation is probably the one most closely resembling the truth.. the Adam and Eve metaphor..

However Donkeys, Horses and Zebras may be related.. Metamorphosis is real.. but evolution may be a tall tale.. A yarn masked as Satans Gospel.. You know Satans gospel.. That God helps those that help themselves.. i.e. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil..

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[hosepipe]

[ Self-organizing systems are not autonomous, i.e. autopoetic. ]

True.. belief that they are is a belief in "magic"..
Evolution(generally) is a belief in "magic"..

That feathers evolved from scales.. for insulation or flight purposes.. Evolution theory is like a scientific cartoon.. You just suppose(think up) that something happened and it "probably did".. they suppose..

People that believe nothing can believe in anything..
I admit, believing that God created creatures is simple..
But surely as rational as evolution is.. since literally NO ONE can ever know for sure.. What actually happened.. At least in this realm of understanding..

Evolution(generally) is a fairy tale for grown-ups..

It appears that "atoms" are NOT little balls revolving around some nucleus.. at all.. No one seems to know WHAT matter is.. or even energy.. exactly.. What life(and death) is, is totally up in the air..

[js1138]

The author cites Michael Ruse’s example of stegosaur plates, that they begin forming in the embryo but only have a function in the adult—supposedly for temperature control.

Genetalia also begin forming in embryos. How is this an example of foreknowledge?

[js1138]

The simplest explanation is probably the one most closely resembling the truth..

I admit that the simplest explanation for everything is goddidit.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

People that believe nothing can believe in anything.. I admit, believing that God created creatures is simple.. But surely as rational as evolution is.. since literally NO ONE can ever know for sure.. What actually happened.. At least in this realm of understanding..

Truly said.

All of the historical sciences - evolution theory, anthropology, archeology, Egyptology - deal with a very spotty historical record. Moreover, they fit individual finds into a blueprint theory which is in effect more of a paradigm than a theory as compared to physics, etc.

If complete remains of every creature that ever lived were available to the investigators, sequenced serially, then the underlying paradigm could be subjected to rigorous tests on a confidence par with physics.

As it is, belief is required. For some, belief in the paradigm. For some, belief in God - with of course, a wide range of understanding of both Scripture and the paradigm. Some one, some the other, some both.

[js1138]

Autopoiesis means automatic creation. The key element in autopoiesis - according to Maturana who coined the term - is autonomy, that an autopoietic system is self-contained or local.

Why not try phrasing this with reference to the video I linked earlier in the thread?

[GodGunsGuts]

==caught dead to rights in what GGG?

On just about every single example you have ever used to establish common descent. Whenever I have taken the trouble to look into the matter, it would turn out that you had no clue what you were talking about. And then when the evidence demonstrating that you are clueless is presented, you plagiarize certain elements of the same without acknowledging your error in order to save face. That's why I have concluded that you are a snot-nosed kid who dropped out of grad school before you had a chance to mature into a self-aware adult. You have no business being in science. But again, I'm sure you would fit right into Bob Gallo's lab.

[tpanther]

I’m rather surprised by this question. You’ve been around these threads for years and could not possibly be ignorant of this topic. Evolution is change. It is not progress in any commonly used sense of the word.

---

Evolution is just change for change’s sakes without purpose or progress?

Riiiiiight.

[js1138]

If complete remains of every creature that ever lived were available to the investigators, sequenced serially, then the underlying paradigm could be subjected to rigorous tests on a confidence par with physics.

Or, one could investigate how self replication could arise via chemistry, as more and more researchers are doing. Anything written on the subject that is more than a couple of years old is not authoritative.

[Alamo-Girl]

The author threw the stegosaur plate out as an example, I added antifreeze proteins and drought adaptation. You've added gentalia in embryos.

All quite interesting and we could run this thread up to ten thousands of posts addressing specific biological anticipations. That would be a waste of bandwidth.

The point of the AP model is autopoiesis, or to put it another way "you can't get there (autopoiesis) from here (lower level in the model.)"

Autonomony is on the table.

[Alamo-Girl]

I am very hard of hearing and do not watch videos or television without closed captioning. If you have a transcript, I'll be glad to comment.

Being so hard of hearing has its advantages though - I'm not easily distracted. LOL!

[tpanther]

I admit that the simplest explanation for everything is goddidit.

Most people will take even that over there's simply no explanation at all and then shrugging your shoulders and taking a nap.

[js1138]

Here’s a current discussion on whether evolution is foresightful. Unfortunately, most evilutionists have been banned from the site, but it’s still a good place to acquaint yourself witht he latest ID thinking.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-evolution-biased/#comment-303026

[Alamo-Girl]

Or, one could investigate how self replication could arise via chemistry, as more and more researchers are doing. Anything written on the subject that is more than a couple of years old is not authoritative.

Speciation is the issue, not self-replication. And not what could have happened, but what actually did happen.