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To: topcat54
So, even if you see these things (or think you see them) it could merely be self-deception on your part.

How does any believer know anything is veritable?

Through faith alone in Christ alone.

Obviously the AntiChrist was not the person referenced in Jerusalem in 70 AD, when soldiers removed every stone from atop another. Surely nobody here would consider such a thing as fulfilling that prophecy, do they?

115 posted on 02/25/2009 11:02:26 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
[Quix color, bold and ALL CAPS emphases]

Have learned on FR that what I thought was very basic OBVIOUS Scripture . . . some folks would consider otherwise.

The absurd notion that most of the END TIMES prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD etc. is just mind bogglingly UNBIBLICAL-TO-THE-MAX.

It's hard for me to conceive that there are even folks who dare to think of themselves as "Christians" who would dare to imagine that God would fail to fulfill even the tiniest of His promises to Israel literally.

Am reading an interesting book:

FROM IRAQ TO ARMAGEDDON: The Final Showdown Approaches

by Keith Intrater.

He notes . . . ---------------------------------------------


Romans 11:12,15
If their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

If their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


"Most Jewish people, because of their rejection of Yeshua, have been like branches cut off of their own tree. The gentile church has been like branches grafted into the tree of faith (see Rom 11:16-22). However, we are to believe that the Jewis people will return and be grafted into the faith of their own Messiah--the most spiritually "natural thing" for them to do."

Romans 11:23
They also, if they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted in, for God is ABLE to graft them in again. [Qx emphasis]

Not only is God able to bring the Jewish people back to faith in Yeshua, He has promised that He WILL DO SO. [Qx emphasis].

Romans 11:26a
[QX emphasis]

"Notice the words 'and so' in this vese. It's not just that all Israel will be saved but that something will happen which will lead to that salvation. What is that something which leads to the 'and so'? It is the change in the attitude of the Church toward Israel's destiny:

Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest you should be WISE IN YOUR OWN OPINIONS, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullnes of the Gentiles has come in. And so . . .
[Qx emphasis]

As the Church receives the revelation of the end-times restoration of Israel, it will pave the way for Israel to come to salvation, which in turn will lead t the second coming of Yeshua.

In the meantime, we have a paradoxical position toward the Jewish people who have not yet eceived the Lord. It is part negative and part positive.

Romans 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE, but concerning the election they are BELOVED for THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS.

page 91

The Remnant Within Israel

I have great love for the body of Messianic believers in Israel, which I see as the spiritual remnant of the nation of Israel. The very existence of this remnant has great prophetic significance.

. . .

The third group is the Messianic Jews, those who are Israeli citizens, Jewish and believers in Yeshua. This group currently numbers around seven housand. It is this group that I am primarily identified with. I believe they have a key role to play in the Kingdom of God.

. . .


We know that Paul's answer tot he question whether the prophetic purposes of Israel have been made void is "CERTAINLY NOT! (Se Rm 11:1). But how could the destiny of Israel not be canceled, considering the rejection of the Messiah and the punishment from God? Here Paul's answer is also clear: The Remant.

Throughout history there was always a minority of true believers within the greater nation of Israel. Despite the sins of the nation, that believing remnant carried within it (in seed form) THE DIVINE DESTINY OF THE NATION.

Every nation, in fact, has a propheticcalling from God.That calling is not seen in the overall population of the nation, but in the community of true believers found within the nation. The prophetic calling of the United States is not seen in the motion pictures from Holywood. That of South Africa is not seen in the racial problems; of Germany, not in Nazism; of Russia, not in communism, etc. The destiny of a nation and its covenant with God are found within the remnant of believers within the nation.

Th same is true in Israel. The source of its destiny is not in Tel Aviv discos, nor political parties, nor rabbinic councils. It is in Yeshua, and in the community of citizens that believe in Him. If one wants to understad the destiny of Israel, he must look not to the larer unbelieving population of Israel, but to the core community of believers within the nation. Gentile Christians become confused by not making this distinction. Either they reject God's purposes for Israel altogether, or they try to make something overly spiritual of Israel's pioneers and politicians.

. . .

The way tohave a balanced theology concerning israel and its destiny is to consider the Messianic jewish community within Israel. Paul wrote [p93] that the way to understand God's plan for Israel was TO COMPARE THE FAITHFUL REMNANT IN THE TIME OF ELIJAH TO THE MESSIANIC JEWISH COMMUNITY OF HIS DAY.

Romans 11:2,4-5
God has not cast away His people whom He oreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Eliljah . . .
what does the divine response say to him? 'I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.'
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Even so, as it was in thetime of Elijah, so it is today. The destiny of Israel, God's plan forthe nation, is found within the remnant. Even Elijah was confused when he saw that such a huge majority of the nation of Israel were not believers. However, God told him not to look at the unbelieving majority but t the believing minority.

In Elijah's time, in Paul's time, and EVEN SO AT THIS PRESENT TIME--there was a remnant and there still is a remnant. AND HOW MANY ARE IN THAT REMNANT? SEVEN THOUSAND.

In the time of Elijah, there was a remnant of seven thousand believers within Israel who carried with them the destiny of the nation. Today there is also a remnant within Israel numbering about seven thousand. This remnant is part of bringing us to a new 'age of Elijah' in our generation. God had to point out to Elijah the importance of the seve thousand faithful ones. The revelation of the remnant gave him hope, faith, and a better understanding of God's purpose. I believe God is trying to point out the importance of the Messianic remnant within Israel today as well.


The prophetic call for the community of faith to recognize the place of Israel is not a racist preference for the Jewish people, bu rather a SUBMISSION TO THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. ,FONT COLOR=NAVY> It is a recognition of Jerusalem as the seat of HIS earthly authority and a recognition of Yeshua as King of the Jews.

I believe Intrater is quite right. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

It is even somewhat conceivable that his Biblical insights COULD be a path or some fair-minded REPLACEMENTARIAN Calvinsts to acquire a BIBLICAL understanding of prophecy in our era. . . . perhaps even in the nick of time, at the rate Biblical prophecy is being increasingly fulfilled.

127 posted on 02/26/2009 8:18:35 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt:
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To: Cvengr
How does any believer know anything is veritable? Through faith alone in Christ alone.

And so how does that help you decide whether antichrist is alive and well on planet earth? Or that modern Israel is the fulfillment of specific Bible prophecies? Or, how would that cause a pastor to make a comment like, "I'm convinced that the Lord is coming for His Church before the end of 1981." based largely on his views about modern Israel?

150 posted on 02/26/2009 9:10:34 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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