Posted on 05/05/2009 9:02:29 PM PDT by ReformationFan
“Spend time in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament,dear brother.”
Not a devotion we practice, sfa. As for heresiarchs, sadly the history of The Church has been filled with them and the Fathers, whose experience with them was extensive, continually warn of the danger they pose to the souls of the Faithful.
“Just as the fishermen hide the hook with bait and covertly hook the fish, similarly, the crafty allies of the heresies cover their evil teachings and corrupt understanding with pietism and hook the more simple, bringing them to spiritual death.” +Isidore of Pelusium.
Its no joke, sfa.
You should, because the consecrated Host is Christ and He is present for you to spend time with him in Adoration
If you deny this you deny Christ presence in the Eucharist
Yep.
“You should, because the consecrated Host is Christ and He is present for you to spend time with him in Adoration.”
sfa, I know your understanding of Orthopraxis is limited, but surely you know that we don’t reserve the Eucharist the way the Latins do.
“If you deny this you deny Christ presence in the Eucharist”
Do you think ANY Orthodox Christian denies the presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Now you’ve simply sunk into personal insults, sfa.
“Yep.”
And those defenses are...? Looks to me, n, as if you’ve decided that supporting a few Latin heresiarchs is the new PCism of conservative movement, their deplorable behavior to the contrary notwithstanding. Frankly, from the beginning of this whole ND thing, its been apparent that its not about theology, its about mundane politics.
I don't profess to know this and I don't know how you can know that every single person who is a member of the Church believes in the true presence
Now you’ve simply sunk into personal insults, sfa.
There was NO personal insult intended,my friend.
Perhaps you spend too much time on free republic and are on guard against insults that are not there.
I'll pray for you at Adoration today
“No, the taking of innocent human life is so heinous, so horribly evil, and so absolutely opposite to the law of Almighty God that abortion must take precedence over every other issue. I repeat. It is the single most important issue confronting not only Catholics, but the entire electorate.”
http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=29838&page=2
Which was posted here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2097369/posts
Similar comments (or the exact same one) of his and others have been posted more recently. The man apparently believes that adherence to and voting in accordance with anti-abortion dogma is the sine qua non of Roman Catholicism, which takes precedence over every other issue.
So, you believe that you can credibly claim that Obama is unaware of the Church’s position on abortion?
To which you responded:
I assume he is likely almost as aware of the Latin Church’s position on abortion as the average American Catholic is. Obama isn’t a Roman Catholic. He isn’t a Catholic of any sort. Aside from political considerations, which frankly seem to militate towards him and not towards the American heresiarchs, why would he care, from a religious pov, what some apparently failed bishops are saying?
I pinged a few Protestant/Evangelical FRiends (none of whom, to the best of my knowledge, have ever been Catholic) to this because I am curious if ANY of them have the slightest doubt what the Catholic Church's position on abortion is or if they believe there is even a remote possibility that Obama is unaware of this position.
He [Obama] may well be laughing at them the same way some of their fellow bishops are.
Please list the names of the bishops who are "laughing" at the five dozen plus bishops who have denounced Obama's upcoming speech at Notre Dame.
Wagglebee, I have absolutely no doubt about the Catholic Church position on life. They are pro-life and anti-abortion. I am a lifelong non-Catholic, and am a Methodist ordained elder. It doesn’t take a genius to know that the Catholic church is pro-life.
The media, however, has tried to obscure that in the case of some Catholic politicians over the last few decades or so. But, the media is stupid beyond belief and probably beyond repair.
The ultimate right is the right to life. Without the RoL, none of the others make any difference whatsoever.
I join with xzins in response: "Wagglebee, I have absolutely no doubt about the Catholic Church position on life."
And I agree with him that the media misrepresents the Church position.
As to the authority of diocesan bishops, it happens that the 68 Catholic bishops who have attacked the once Catholic Notre Dame University are, in fact, standing in solidarity with Bishop D'Arcy of the Fort Wayne-South Bend Diocese. My own Rockford, Illinois Bishop Thomas Doran (one of seven judges of the Signatura which is the RCC's Supreme Court) has called upon Fr. Jenkins to change the name of ND to something more accurate: NW Indiana Humanist University and he has said that he will pray for Fr. Jenkins conversion to Catholicism.
If Bishop D'Arcy had lacked the backbone to at least attack the decision of Jenkins and the pseudo-Catholic Demonratic Party whores who run ND to invite an open enemy of our Church (and of our civilization) to speak at commencement and to receive an honorary JD degree as well, then I would have applauded my bishop for intervening against the evil of such moral cowardice in a fellow bishop.
Perhaps what is heresy is the presumption by one who is not of the Roman Catholic Faith of some non-existent status justifying your fantasy of declaring papal statements on matters of faith and morals as "heresy."
That Orthodoxy lacks a central teaching and governing authority and has no pope and must therefore rely on mere councils (not necessarily consistent with one another) or local bishops (not necessarily consistent with one another) does not justify individual Orthodox in exercising the effrontery to attack the pope as a "heretic."
There must be some reason why you imagine your anti-Catholic opinions to be of interest to Catholics, but I confess I cannot imagine such a thing. If we should ever thirst for your opinions on the governance of our Church, we will be sure to let you know. Don't hold your breath waiting, though.
Maybe you guys could bring the anti-papal SSPX nuisances into your ranks. That would be doing something useful for us.
Let us explore the context. First, the bishop addresses the issues of scientific uncertanties regarding beginning of life. Next, he addresses the concerns regarding health care, education, economic security, immigration, and taxes, and finally moral theology of war. It is in comparison to these concerns that the horror of taking an innocent human life stands out. And he explains why:
the solutions to problems in these areas do not usually involve a rejection of the sanctity of human life in the way that abortion does. Being “right” on taxes, education, health care, immigration, and the economy fails to make up for the error of disregarding the value of a human life.[...]
A person who supports permissive abortion laws, however, rejects the truth that innocent human life may never be destroyed. This profound moral failure runs deeper and is more corrupting of the individual, and of the society, than any error in applying just war criteria to particular cases
[...]
The failure to protect life in its most vulnerable stages renders suspect any claims to the ‘rightness’ of positions in other matters affecting the poorest and least powerful of the human community. If we understand the human person as ‘the temple of the Holy Spirit’ – the living house of God – then these latter issues fall logically into place as the crossbeams and walls of that house. All direct attacks on innocent human life, such as abortion and euthanasia, strike at the house’s foundation
It is clear that "precedence over every other issue" is referring to precedence over issues of social policy in front of the voter, and not issues of abstract theology.
Thank you both for your posts.
I know that non-Catholics are sometimes a little confused about certain Catholic beliefs and practices, but I always assumed that the Catholic position on abortion was quite clear and I just wanted to make sure I was correct.
I don’t think the position of the church is unclear at all.
I do know that some bishops in certain liberal theological/political enclaves will allow it to be obscurred....Notre Dame being an example.
Vladimir Putin poses for holy pictures as Orthodox. Thus the answer is YES! I assume that most Orthodox believe in the Real Presence but the Russian Orthodox have (via the notion of vesting authority in a nation and rejecting actual universality) but the Russian Orthodox Church has paid the price of having all too cozy a relationship between the reds and its Russian clergy. I am less acquainted with the Greek Orthodox Church and others but these also resist universality.
Actually Bishop of Fort Wayne-South Bend, John D'Arcy was one of if not the first bishops to condemn the speech. To date, over five dozen other American bishops have stood in solidarity with him on this.
While you are correct that a disturbing number of bishops (typically from liberal enclaves) have for too long been silent on abortion, it should also be noted that NONE have ever spoken in favor of abortion.
Thanks for the ping, wagglebee. First, to confirm your ping -- I have never been Catholic, and was not born to Catholic parents. I do have a number of Catholic relatives, however. I hope no one will hold that against me :P
I am curious if ANY of them have the slightest doubt what the Catholic Church's position on abortion is or if they believe there is even a remote possibility that Obama is unaware of this position.
Even as a non-Catholic, there isn't the slightest doubt in my own mind what the "official Catholic position" is regarding abortion.
BUT....
IMO you have to consider that the "Catholic Church position" is articulated to the layperson at multiple levels. What I would call the "Vatican Position" is monolithic and unambiguous in its opposition to abortion. Obama could not claim to be unaware of the Vatican position, unless he was living in a cave for the last forty years.
On the other hand, the "Vatican position" has to be implemented in some way by the local bishop, and taught to the layman via the local diocese. We know that many of the bishops in the US, pre-Benedict, were politically liberal in many aspects, and the Vatican did not take a hard line with dissenting bishops under JPII like they are now. While I don't know of a case personally, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that whoever Obama acknowledged as the local bishop or priest compromised on the Church's position, allowing Obama to think the Church was not absolute in it's opposition (think Pelosi, pre-Benedict-meeting).
Nice try, Alex.
“With each post you are convincing me that, when I was tempted by bad “Catholic” liturgies in the 1970s to become Eastern Orthodox, I was blessed by the intervention of Catholic friends and the grace of God to remain Catholic. If youraparent belief think that the heresies that have for several decades marked the AmChurch include over-emphasis on saving the lives of God’s innocent unborn babies reflects actual Orthox opinion, I cannot imagine ever being tempted by Eastern Orthodoxy again.”
BE, if you think that being anti-abortion is the overarching requirement of The Faith, the ultimate sine qua non of Catholicism before which all other considerations must fall, then you would be very unhappy in Orthodoxy.
“Perhaps what is heresy is the presumption by one who is not of the Roman Catholic Faith of some non-existent status justifying your fantasy of declaring papal statements on matters of faith and morals as “heresy.””
One of the fundamental and very practical differences between the laity in the Roman Church and the laity in Orthodoxy is that we have a positive obligation to recognize heresy, especially among hierarchs, and take action against them. Its our role in the Church, BE. There is no pay, pray and obey mentality among the laity in Orthodoxy. Now, we are told by your hierarchs that we are in sufficient communion with Rome that we are welcome to receive the Eucharist at a liturgy. Sounds to me like I have all the “authority” I need to speak my mind about heresiarchs in a particular Church which views my Church as being in communion with it. Not presumption, BE, proper role.
“...the Russian Orthodox Church has paid the price of having all too cozy a relationship between the reds and its Russian clergy.”
Indeed it has, as all state churches of whatever persuasion do. Ethnophyletism isn’t avoided simply because a church has a central universal authority, BE.
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