Evangelical group takes aim at other faiths

Saying something that is a direct quote is “spin” is what liberals and socialist like Obama do.

And also MORMON's with very shaky faith; but STRONG 'testimonies'!

They know they believe SOMETHING, but aren't sure exactly what it is or how to explain it.

WOW, Elsie, that was wonderful. I might disagree with you but I knew that there was an opinion of your own lurking around there. Thank you.

It’s in there, you just have to read it.

Love ya pal.

And of course your post arent’ babbling about nothing!

"Well to me IMHO the only way to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ again is to believe and receive a witness from the Spirit of the Lord, Jesus Christ."

Lets take this a little at a time

Well to me IMHO the only way to live with Heavenly Father...

Not My heavenly Father, not the heavenly Father, but Heavenly Father. I've noticed Mormons don't have a heavenly Father like the Christians do, but they have Heavenly Father who was a man that attained the status of a god.

...and Jesus Christ

This isn't the Jesus Christ of the Bible, because Jesus Christ of the Mormons is a created being, created at the time satan was created.

And also the brother of satan.

...believe and receive a witness from the Spirit of the Lord, Jesus Christ

Now that is a tricky one.

If by that you mean the LORD JESUS CHRIST who was in the beginning with God and is eternal, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega, then that sounds true.

If you mean the Mormon Jesus Christ, a created being created the same time as satan, then it won't work.

Jesus said, "Many will come in My Name", be careful

And of course your post arent’ babbling about nothing!

Yes; the WORDS of your CHOSEN Organization® are babble - just like at the Tower of.

My my!!

SOMEONE got zapped above! TWICE!

I just KNEW I shoulda watched this thread ALL NIGHT!

My my!!

SOMEONE got zapped above! TWICE!

I just KNEW I shoulda watched this thread ALL NIGHT!

The following testimonies of the 11 witnesses are contained in each Book of Mormon:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Seems like all 11 men not only saw the plates, but handled them as well. :-)

So, tell me again, how a Greek word that hadn't even been originated until hundreds of years after the supposed gold plates were written appeared in the Book of Mormon, when a Hebrew even writing in reformed Egyptian would have used the word Messiah and not Christ?

See post 112

Ah, so you don’t want to address my later posts. I see.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man.

Care to tell me what you think the bolded line meant. AND if these men truly saw soemthing they thought were gold plates AND if they believed them to come from God - How, HOW did they come to leave Mormonism. Seems that they had a very shakey testimony afterall.

None of these men could ever go back on their signed statement - to do so would have hurt their own credibility and shown them to be the liars that their actions indicate they truly were.

The majority (if not all) the witnesses were believers in folk magic. A number possessed seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman.^[7]
The Three Witnesses all left the church during Joseph Smith's lifetime.^[8]
All of the witnesses were family, close friends, or financial backers of Joseph Smith, Jr.^[9] Mark Twain later joked, "I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified."^[10]
Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience."^[11]
Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and "hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it."^[12]
In Doctrine and Covenants 5: 11-14, revealed to Joseph Smith in March 1829, the Three Witnesses are told that they will be given power to see the golden plates, "to behold and view these things...and to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation." In 2 Nephi 27:13, a translation completed in the late spring or early summer of the same year, the Three are told that "none other...shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God," thus allowing for the inclusion of the Eight Witnesses.^[13]
Years later, Mormon leader Brigham Young said that some "witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel."^[14]

THE GOLDEN BIBLE AND ITS CONTENTS. The various verbal accounts, all contradictory, vague, and inconsistent, which were given out by the Smith family respecting the finding of certain Gold or brazen plates, will be hereafter presented in numerous depositions which have been taken in the neighborhood of the plot. -- Since the publication of the book they have been generally more uniform in their relations respecting it.

They say that some two years previous to the event taking place, Joseph, Jun., began his interviews with Angels, or spirits, who informed him of the wonderful plates, and the manner and time of obtaining them. This was to be done in the presence of his wife and first child, which was to be a son. In the month of September, 1827, Joseph got possession of the plates, after a considerable struggle with a spirit. The remarkable event was soon noised abroad, and the Smith family commenced making proselytes among the credulous, and lovers of the marvelous, to the belief that Joseph had found a record of the first settlers in America.

Many profound calculations were made about the amount of their profits on the sale of such a book. A. religious speculation does not seem to have seriously entered into their heads at that time. The plates in the mean time were concealed from human view, the prophet declaring that no man could look upon them and live. They at the same time gave out that, along with the plates, was found a huge pair of silver spectacles, altogether too large for the present race of men, but which were to be used, neverthe less, in translating the plates.

The translation finally commenced. They were found to contain a language not now known upon the earth which they termed "reformed Egyptian characters." The plates, therefore, which had been so much talked of, were found to be of no manner of use. After all, the Lord showed and communicated to him every word and letter of the Book. Instead of looking at the characters inscribed upon the plates, the prophet was obliged to resort to the old "peep stone," which he formerly used in money-digging. This he placed in a hat, or box, into which he also thrust his face. Through the stone he could then discover a single word at a time, which he repeated aloud to his amanuensis, who committed it to paper, when another word would immediately appear, and thus the performance continued to the end of the book.

Another account they give of the translation, is, that it was performed with the big spectacles before mentioned, and which were in fact, the identical Urim and Thumim mentioned in Exodus 28 -- 30, and were brought away from Jerusalem by the heroes of the book, handed down from one generation to another, and finally buried up in Ontario county, some fifteen centuries since, to enable Smith to translate the plates without looking at them!

Before the work was completed, under the pretense that some persons were endeavoring to destroy the plates and prophet, they relate that the Lord commanded them to depart into Pennsylvania, where they could proceed unmolested. Smith, accordingly, removed his family thither; but it appears that it was at the request of his father-in-law, instead of the command of the Lord. A box, which he said contained the plates, was conveyed in a barrel of beans, while on the journey. Soon after this, his father-in-law, Mr. Isaac Hale, on account of his daughter, agreed to sell Smith a part of his farm, provided he would go to work and quit his impositions. He said he had given up his former occupation, and concluded to labor for a living. But, in a few weeks Harris made his appearance there, and soon after Cowdery, and Smith again commenced looking into the hat, and telling off his bible. In the mean time, Satan had made an assault upon Harris, and robbed him of one hundred and sixteen pages of the bible, which had been translated. Cowdery was the chosen scribe to complete the work; after which the plates were again buried up by the command of the Lord, in a place unknown to the prophet or any other person.

The Golden Bible was finally got ready for the press, and issued in the summer of 1830, nearly three years from the time of its being dug up. It is a book of nearly six hundred pages, and is unquestionably one of the meanest in the English, or any other language. It is more devoid of interest than any we have ever seen. It must have been written by an atheist, to make an experiment upon the human understanding and credulity. The author, although evidently a man of learning, studied barrenness of style and expression, without an equal. It carries condemnation on every page. The God of Heaven, that all-wise Being, could never have delivered such a farrago of nonsense to the world. But we must proceed to examine it more in detail. The title page says: ---

"The Book of Mormon, an account written by the hand of Mormon, upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi; wherefore it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile; written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophesy and of revelation: written, and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed; to come forth by the gift and power of God, unto the interpretation thereof; sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentiles; the interpretation thereof, by the gift of God; an abridgment taken from the book of Ether.

Also, which is a record of the people of Jared, which were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to Heaven, which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel, how great things the Lord has done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever; and also to the convincing of the Jews and Gentiles, that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself to all nations. And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.

By Joseph Smith, Jun. Author and proprietor."

Mormonism Unvailed

MARTIN HARRIS is the next personage of note in the Golden Bible speculation. He is one of the three witnesses to the truth of the book, having been shown the plates through the agency of an Angel, instead of the Prophet Joseph, who always had them in possession. Before his acquaintance with the Smith family, he was considered an honest, industrious citizen, by his neighbors. His residence was in the town of Palmyra, where he had accumulated a handsome property. He was naturally of a very visionary turn of mind on the subject of religion, holding one sentiment but a short time. He engaged in the new Bible business with a view of making a handsome sum of money from the sale of the books, as he was frequently heard to say. The whole expense of publishing an edition of 5000 copies, which was borne by Martin, to secure the payment of which, he mortgaged his farm for $3000. Having failed in his anticipations about the sale of the books, (the retail price of which they said was fixed by an Angel at $1.75, but afterwards reduced to $1.25, and from that down to any price they could obtain) he adopted Smith as his Prophet, Priest and King. Since that time, the frequent demands upon Martin's purse have reduced it to a very low state. He seems to have been the soul and body of the whole imposition, and now carries the most incontestible proofs of a religious maniac. He frequently declares that he has conversed with Jesus Christ, Angels and the Devil. Christ he says is the handsomest man he ever saw; and the Devil looks very much like a jack-ass, with very short, smooth hair, similar to that of a mouse. He says he wrote a considerable part of the book, as Smith dictated, and at one time the presence of the Lord was so great, that a screen was hung up between him and the Prophet; at other times the Prophet would sit in a different room, or up stairs, while the Lord was communicating to him the contents of the plates. He does not pretend that he ever saw the wonderful plates but once, although he and Smith were engaged for months in deciphering their contents. He has left his wife to follow the fortunes of Smith. He has frequent fits of phrophecying, although they are not held in very high repute among his brethren. A specimen of his prophetic powers we subjoin. They were written for the special information of a friend of his who placed them upon the wall of his office, and are in these words:

Within four years from September 1832, there will not be one wicked person left in the United States; that the righteous will be gathered to Zion, (Missouri) and that there will be no President over these United States after that time.
MARTIN HARRIS. I do hereby assert and declare that in four years from the date hereof, every sectarian and religious denomination in the United States, shall be broken down, and every Christian shall be gathered unto the Mormonites, and the rest of the human race shall perish. If these things do not take place, I will hereby consent to have my hand separated from my body.
MARTIN HARRIS.

Martin is an exceedingly fast talker. He frequently gathers a crowd around him in bar-rooms and in the streets. -- Here he appears to be in his element, answering and explaining all manner of dark and abstruse theological questions, from Genesis to Revelations; declaring that every thing has been revealed to him by the "power of God." During these flights of fancy, he frequently prophecies the coming of Christ, the destruction of the world, and the damnation of certain individuals. At one time he declared that Christ would be on earth within fifteen years, and all who did not believe in the book of Mormon would be destroyed.

He is the source of much trouble and perplexity to the honest portion of his brethren, and would undoubtedly long since have been cast off by Smith, were it not for his money, and the fact that he is one of the main pillars of the Mormon fabric. Martin is generally believed, by intelligent people, to be laboring under a partial derangement; and that any respectable jury would receive his testimony, in any case, of ever so trifling a nature, we do not believe; yet, the subjects of the delusion think him a competent witness to establish miracles of the most unreasonable kind. But we leave him for the present.

OLIVER COWDERY comes next in the catalogue. He was also a chief scribe to the prophet, while transcribing, after Martin had lost 116 pages of the precious document, by interference of the Devil. An Angel also has shown him the plates, from which the book of Mormon proceeded, as he says. He is a blacksmith by trade, and sustained a fair reputation until his intimacy commenced with the money-diggers. He was one of the many in the world who always find time to study out ways and means to live without work. He accordingly quit the blacksmithing business, and is now the editor of a small monthly publication issued under the direction of the prophet, and principally filled with accounts of the spread of Mormonism, their persecutions, and the fabled visions and commands of Smith.

DAVID WHITMAR is the third special witness who signed the certificate with Harris and Cowdery, testifying to having seen plates. He is one of five of the same name and family who have been used as witnesses to establish the imposition, and who are now head men and leaders in the Mormonite camp. They were noted in their neighborhood for credulity and a general belief in witches, and perhaps were fit subjects for the juggling arts of Smith. David relates that he was led by Smith into an open field, on his father;s farm, where they found the Book of plates lying upon the ground. Smith took it up and requested him to examine it, which he did for the space of half an hour or more, when he returned it to Smith, who placed it in its former position, alledging that it was in the custody of an Angel. He discribes the plates as being about eight inches square, the leaves being metal of a whitish yellow color, and of the thickness of tin plates. The back was secured with three small rings of the same metal, passing through each leaf in succession; that the leaves were divided equidistant between the back and the edge, by cutting the plates in two parts, and again united with solder, so that the front might be opened, while the back part remained stationary and immovable, and was consequently a sealed book, which would not be revealed for ages to come, and which Smith himself was not permitted to understand. On opening that part of the book which was not secured by seals, he discovered inscribed on the aforesaid plates, divers and wonderful characters, some large and some small, but beyond the wisdom of man to understand without supernatural aid; this account is sometimes partly contradicted by Harris.

Mormonism Unvailed

The following testimonies of the 11 witnesses are contained in each Book of Mormon:

What is NOT contained in the Book of Mormon...

1. Anything resembling the 'Restored Gospel®'.
2. Any references to the 'sacred' Temple Rites©.
3. Any 'doctrine' that is very far from Christianity.

The following testimonies of the 11 witnesses are contained in each Book of Mormon:

What is NOT contained in the Book of Mormon...

1. Anything resembling the 'Restored Gospel®'.
2. Any references to the 'sacred' Temple Rites©.
3. Any 'doctrine' that is very far from Christianity.