Is 'Ecumenism' a Bad Word?

Catholic Culture ^ | 7/27/2000 | Matt C. Abbott

[kingpins10]

Ecumenism is straight from Lucifer. No doubt about it.

[bdeaner]

Ecumenism is straight from Lucifer. No doubt about it.

LOL. Are you serious?

[kingpins10]

Ecumenism, as put forth by Revelation, a.k.a: one world religion. Compromise over biblical things is never good.

[kingpins10]

“The Catechism goes on to quote Vatican II’s teaching on what is known as Baptism of desire: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (n. 847).”

Wrong. Salvation is through Jesus Christ’s work on the cross and his efforts alone.

[PetroniusMaximus]

This is ecumenicism...



(That's a Koran btw.)

[bdeaner]

Ecumenism, as put forth by Revelation, a.k.a: one world religion. Compromise over biblical things is never good.

I think you jumped the gun a bit. First of all, the article is talking about CHRISTIAN ecumenism, not "one world religion." Secondly, the article is explicitly critical of the "one world religion" type of ecumenism -- in other words, without compromising -- yet nevertheless striving toward Christian unity.

Biblically, we are commanded to strive toward unity as a Church, but of course without compromise.

[kingpins10]

Actually we’re not commanded to strive towards unity as a church. We are commanded to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ without dilution. We can’t get there on our own merits, Christ and Christ alone is the way.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” - Catholic Church

“...But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

- Jesus Christ

It seems that Jesus taught that the ignorant would have a lesser punishment - but not eternal life.

[Irisshlass]

I am a traditional catholic and belong to a parish under the FSSP. Their founding...

In 1988, Pope John Paul II established the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter as a society of apostolic life and approved its constitutions. The Fraternity was founded in response to the Holy Father’s call to ecclesial unity and the new evangelization. Hence, our name denotes a filial love and loyalty to the Supreme Pontiff.

Their mission...
The Fraternity of St. Peter seeks to respond to the Holy Father’s appeal through an active apostolate in the service of the Church. We seek to reunite those who have been alienated by liturgical abuse and theological dissent by offering the sacred liturgy in all of its solemnity according to the Latin liturgical books of 1962, and by offering the faithful sound catechetical teaching within the living Tradition of the Church

The Holy Father has called on all baptized faithful to participate in the new evangelization of the world, emphasizing the fact that all must use their unique charisms to full effect. The fraternity of St. Peter has as its charism the celebration of the sacraments according to the extraordinary from of the Roman rite. Through our liturgical identity, the Fraternity carries on the new evangelization in the living tradition of the Church that is ever ancient, ever new.

[kingpins10]

I’m not Catholic. My Lord and Saviour is Jesus Christ, not works. My deeds can never be good enough to get to heaven. To say otherwise is denial of Christ.

“For by grace are you saved, not works, lest any man should boast.”

[Irisshlass]

[bdeaner]

Let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

Ephesians 4:1-16
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

John 17: 20-23
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Ephesians 1:23
And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

John 17:9-11
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 17: 21-23
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 1:10-16
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)

Galatians 3:27-28
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:1-6, 15-16
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all...
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Acts 4:32
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

[kingpins10]

Your scriptures are not the same as mine. You choose to be Catholic, I choose to be Christian. Good day.

[bdeaner]

Evangelical and Catholic theologies both accept as the starting tenet of soteriology that we are saved by grace. God gives us his life as an act of generosity on his part. This is a not a point of disagreement between Catholics and Evangelicals. It is one of our glorious agreements! I'm sorry you do not appreciate that. Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification.

There are some differences in the ways Protestants, and in particular Evangelicals, define grace by referring primarily to its origin in God. Grace is typically defined as the free generosity of God through the self-giving of Christ. Catholics agree with this part of the definition but go on to define how the grace of God affects us when we are touched by it: grace is "any divine assistance given to persons in order to advance them toward their supernatural destiny of fellowship with God...Grace transforms a person's nature" (Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia). Catholics will go even farther, distinguishing between santifying grace (supernatural life) and actual grace (supernatural aid).

The problem that Catholics have with Protestant soteriology is not the claim that we are justified by faith but the claim that we are justified by faith alone. Works continue the justification after faith has begun it. In other words, justification is not complete without complete sanctification.

All the Catholic position needs is, first, any scripture that indicates works are essential for justification. And secondly, the absence of any statement in the Bible that we are justified by faith ALONE.

First, Scripture does clearly and emphatically teach that works are involved in the "by" of justification. The most obvious passage is in James:

James 2:14-26
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith without action/works is dead. He says a man is "JUSTIFIED by what he does." The Catholic interpretation is validated by the fact that reformers attempted to put James into an appendix in the Bible rather than in its historically accepted place. But it cannot be ignored.

Nevertheless James is not the only place to find verses to support the necessity of works (AND faith) for justification. The Catholic view of justification by faith AND works (faith comes first) is consistent with the gospel of Jesus!

Our Lord, Jesus Christ's ideal was that of a life of good works flowing outward from a vibrant inner faith. The parables of the wide and foolish builders (Mt 7:24-27), the two sons (Mt 21:28-32), the good Samaritan (Lk 10:25-37), the talents (Mt 25:14-30), the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46), and others all teach a unity of faith and works for salvation. The entire Sermon on the Mount is a discourse on Jesus' view of justification (justification and righteousness have the same root in Greek): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven" (Mt 7:21). How much more explicit could Jesus have been?!?!?

In the Lord's Prayer (Our Father), Jesus teaches us to ask God to forgive us in the same measure that we have forgiven others. "Forgive us our debts [trespasses], as we also have forgiven our debtors [those who trespass against us]" (Mt 6:12). Catholics pray this prayer in every Mass. As a former Evangelical, I NEVER ONCE heard this prayer in an Evangelical Church! The theology of the Lord's Prayer just does not fit Protestant notions concerning salvation. For this reason, they feel it is better left unsaid. What a shame.

It is quite clear in Jesus' teaching that justification, and thus salvation, is accomplished in a unity of these two: faith and works. The whole process is made possible solely by grace. This is just what Catholic theology asserts.

Does Scripture anywhere state that "by faith alone" we are justified? The long and the short of it is--no. Those words are never, ever used in relation to justification anymore, by any of the NT authors. And no, not by Paul, who critized Jewish obligational works of law, e.g. circumcision, but not justification by good works. In fact, there are many passages in Paul's letters that support the necessity of good action for justification, including Philippians 2:12, Romans 2:6-8, etc.. And, by the way, the reformers tampered with the translation of Ephesians 2:8-10 -- it never said "faith ALONE," but rather that "BY GRACE" we "have been saved, through faith...for we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do GOOD WORKS."! In short, Paul agrees: grace makes possible justification through faith AND good works.

[Ransomed]

“You choose to be Catholic, I choose to be Christian.”

Nice.

Freegards

[bdeaner]

Catholics are the original Christians, who canonized the Bible. The Church considers all Christians to be Christians, but not in full communion with the Mother Church.

God bless you, my Christian Brother. I will keep you in my prayers.

[bdeaner]

God bless you, Christian Brother (or Sister, as the case may be). You may not recognize Catholics as Christians, but we are the original Christians. Without the Church, there would be no Bible. And we recognize all Christians as our brothers and sisters, only not in full communion with the Mystical Body of Christ that is the Church.

[bronxville]

We all need to get together somehow or other because what’s coming down the pike will need strong unity.

[kingpins10]

Actually, you’re wrong about the original Christian brothers. They were called the apostles.

The Catholic Vulgate is from corrupted manuscripts from Alexandria, Egypt where followers of Origen inserted their own personal beliefs into the scripts. Among those are the belief that works are good enough to win salvation, which is false.

The ‘church’ is the local visible congregation of New Testament believers. That is why the Catholic church rounded up Christians by the millions, all through the ages, and murdered them. And now they are with the Lord.