Is 'Ecumenism' a Bad Word?

Catholic Culture ^ | 7/27/2000 | Matt C. Abbott

[Iscool]

You are mounting a STRAW MAN argument. Please go up in the thread and the post I sent to you on Catholic soteriology and read it again. Catholics DO NOT believe that we get to heaven based only on our good deeds.

Seems like you are talking out of both side of your mouth...Are your good deeds along with faith in Jesus Christ what is required for your salvation??? Is it your good deeds and faith in your Catholic church that will gain you salvation??? Seems like you are all over the map on the issue...

[Petronski]

...Seems like you are talking out of both side of your mouth... Is it your good deeds and faith in the Catholic Church that will gain you salvation???

Do you have an example of him saying faith in the Catholic Church will gain salvation?

[Petronski]

Liturgy is paganism and not Biblical.

A Christian Liturgy is Christian, not pagan.

Sola Scriptura is a false tradition of men, not Biblical.

[Petronski]

Like I said, the church is the New Testament assembly of believers, not the Catholic Church.

They are one in the same.

[Petronski]

Liturgy as practiced by the Catholic Church is paganism.

The Liturgy of the Word of the Catholic Church is a study and celebration of Scripture. The Liturgy of the Eucharist of the Catholic Church is commanded by Christ, see John Chapter 6. The Real Presence in Holy Eucharist is one of His most beautiful gifts to us.

We are not eating “the flesh of Jesus and drinking the blood” of Jesus.

Well it's clear you're not, anyway.

[Petronski]

The Catholic Church is guilty of revisions.

Talk about psychological projections, that one is a doozy.

[Petronski]

A faith that is based on faith and works is a form of polytheism.

Absurd.

[Petronski]

By thinking that heaven can be obtained by works is the belief through ‘reason’ that we have the power to ‘earn’ our way there.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that heaven can be obtained by works alone, that we can 'earn' our way there.

Be careful when fashioning a straw man so ginormous, it might topple and crush you.

It denies that Christ’s work alone is what is needed.

Of course it does, because sola fide is a false tradition of men.

[bdeaner]

Oh right, the Muslims love the Pope. /s

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Oh right, the Muslims love the Pope. /s “

Nobody said ecumenicism actually works...

[bdeaner]

Before I more broadly address the points you raise and the scripture you cite, I have two simple questions for you.

1. How do you make sense of Matthew 7:21 and James 2, given your "faith alone" soteriology?

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

James 2 is cited above, in an earlier post on this thread.

2. Luther wrote, "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Chirst even more boldly...No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." Do you agree with this statement? Why or why not?

If you can address these questions, then I will be in a better position to clarify Catholic soteriology and how it is the same and/or different than yours.

Beyond that, I will note that I have not made the mistake of claiming that Paul in Galatians and Romans is only making reference to ceremonial law and not moral law. If you refer back to what I wrote, you will see that I stated, rather, that Paul is referring to MOSAIC LAW, which implies both ceremonial and moral law, e.g. all that stuff in Leviticus. Christ brings a New Covenant that replaces the Old Convenant. But more on that later. It would be helpful for me if you could address my two questions.

[Iscool]

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

If you can address these questions, then I will be in a better position to clarify Catholic soteriology and how it is the same and/or different than yours.

I already know what the Catholic position is...And it doesn't matter how many time you dance around the scriptures, you won't get it right with the Catholic view in mind...

It has nothing to do with what I think a verse says...What's important is what God says about the issue...

The will of the Father is to believe on the Son that He sent...You can claim the will of the Father is to do good works and you'll be wrong...

In fact, in the very next verse, Jesus puts that condemnation right squarely in your lap...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

2. Luther wrote, "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Chirst even more boldly...No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." Do you agree with this statement? Why or why not?

It's obvious Luther was wallowing in hyperbole here...But Luther was on the right track...

Like in this verse I posted to you earlier;

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

AND like I said earlier, this verse is alien to you guys...And without understanding THAT verse, much of the NT remains hidden...

Beyond that, I will note that I have not made the mistake of claiming that Paul in Galatians and Romans is only making reference to ceremonial law and not moral law. If you refer back to what I wrote, you will see that I stated, rather, that Paul is referring to MOSAIC LAW, which implies both ceremonial and moral law, e.g. all that stuff in Leviticus. Christ brings a New Covenant that replaces the Old Convenant. But more on that later. It would be helpful for me if you could address my two questions.

Well good...So then THAT law is what Paul was referring to when he said salvation is by grace, thru faith, without works...No works of any kind...And He reiterates it in many places...

But then you say this:

It is quite clear in Jesus' teaching that justification, and thus salvation, is accomplished in a unity of these two: faith and works.

That's not what Jesus says...

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Does Scripture anywhere state that "by faith alone" we are justified? The long and the short of it is--no.

In case you haven't noticed, faith without works is faith alone...Doesn't say alone but you know it's faith alone because it doesn't say faith and something else...

[wmfights]

1. How do you make sense of Matthew 7:21 and James 2, given your "faith alone" soteriology?

Actually, you should be asking yourself that question. Your obvious error is relying on a bunch of priests to tell you what to believe. Read Scripture.

You cited Matt 7:21

Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Your answer is in Scripture!

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them,"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

[bdeaner]

I appreciate your addressing my questions. Although, I wish you would spare all the hyperbole and bravado in your rhetoric.

You claim to know Catholic soteriology but it's clear from your statements that you do not have a Biblical soteriology, nor do I believe you appreciate the extent to which the Church's soteriology is completely scriptural. Obviously, you don't, because you make audacious claims about how God is on your side of the issue. Well, no, He isn't. Sorry. Hate to break it to you. You are reading verses out of context.

You stick with Paul and Matthew in your soteriology, but completely avoid James. I explicitly asked you to tell me how you deal with James 2, but your answer is conspicuously absent. James tells us quite clearly that FAITH without WORKS is DEAD. But you choose to ignore that scripture, because it does not fit with your preconceptions of a "faith alone" soteriology. But this is not acceptible. One must incorporate ALL of the Scriptures, and leave no contradictions, if you want a coherent and complete Biblical soteriology. You have failed to develop such a soteriology.

The major problem here is an issue of the meaning of terms that get thrown around. What does "works" really mean? I will tell you what James means. He means the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. Faith without hope and charity is dead -- it is mere intellectual assent. If you read St. Paul's letters as a whole, this becomes quite clear, and one can see that he does not contradict James at all.

For starters, you like to reference St. Paul's letter to the Galatians. The "works" which he tells us to reject are those of the Mosaic Law, or Torah. But he goes on to tell the Galatians that liberty from the Mosaic Law does not mean they can do whatever they please. He informs them that they are under a new convenant within which they are to become virtuous -- expressive outwardly of the faith, hope and charity which has become possible for them through grace.

St. Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians because the Judaizers of the time were taking a foothold in their culture. The Judaizers were telling the Christians that, in order to become Christians, the gentiles had to first convert to Judaism, for example by getting circumcized and following the old laws of Judaism that Christ had replaced with the New Convenant. Their arguments were having an influence in Galatia, and so Paul was writing to counteract their effect on the gentiles in this region. He goes on to caution them that liberty from the Mosaic Law does not mean they are free from the new law of the new convenant, which demands from them to become holy and virtuous, by the grace of God.

Galatians 5: 5-22
5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.

7 You did run well, who hath hindered you, that you should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven corrupteth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord: that you will not be of another mind: but he that troubleth you, shall bear the judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? Then is the scandal of the cross made void. 12 I would they were even cut off, who trouble you.

13 For you, brethren, have been called unto liberty: only make not liberty an occasion to the flesh, but by charity of the spirit serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if you bite and devour one another; take heed you be not consumed one of another.

16 I say then, walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. 18 But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, 20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, 23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be made desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying on another.

Understood in context, it's clear Paul is saying that the Mosaic Law no longer matters, bcause the Christian is called by the new law established by Christ: to love one's neighbor as one's self -- a "faith that worketh by charity." He is abundantly clear that a good life is necessary (but not sufficient) for salvation -- to, in Paul's words, "obtain the kingdom of God." We reap what we sow, he tells us. And so understood in context, St. Paul's letter to the Galatians is in complete harmony with James 2:2: "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."

In James 2:2, St. James is not referring to the "works" of Mosaic Law, or Torah. He is not speaking out against the Judaizers. By "works," St. James, rather, is speaking about the corporal works of mercy. This is what James is talking about, for example, is Chapter 1, verse 25:

James 1: 22-25:
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. 24 For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. 25 But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Also, see:

James 3:13
Who is a wise man, and endued with knowledge among you? Let him shew, by a good conversation, his work in the meekness of wisdom.

As St. Paul teaches us in his first letter to the Corinthians, we are called as Christians, for our salvation, not merely to give our intellectual assent -- we are not justified by intellectual belief alone -- but rather through the formed faith which is expressed in the virtues of faith, hope and charity.

1 Corinthians 13:
1 IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. 13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Indeed, the GREATEST of the virtues is CHARITY, according to Paul. Love of neighbor, good deeds, faith expressed in action. Works, in other words, in the James sense of the word, not in the Mosaic Law, Torah, sense of the word.

This concept of charity as an expression of faith, and as necessary for our salvation, is something that is lost on Luther, based on his statement about fornicating and murder a thousand times a day. Sorry, but that kind of behavior means he has not faith -- just mere intellectual asset, or what James calls a faith that is "dead."

This is how to read the Bible, in context, rather than randomly quoting things out of context.

Enough for now, but I will follow up with a discussion of Romans, since this time I focused on Galatians and James, and how Luther twisted the words of these disciples in order to rationalize his own sinful behavior.