Posted on 06/25/2009 9:21:29 PM PDT by bdeaner
If that is the case, then this would mean Revelations is a pagan text. Do you wish to throw out that book as well as James and the deuterocanonicals, and whatever else doesn’t fit into your preconceptions? That’s what the Reformers have always done. If it doesn’t fit the preconception, get rid of the Scripture. I’m sure the Lord is quite pleased with the revisions to his inspired Word. /s
“I’m not going to read the book “
And therein lies the rub. I don’t support Marxist/Leninist views, but I’ve read and own both authors. I even have memoirs from former Clinton cabinet members. It is good to read all points of view, instead of relying on one bad review, IMHO.
The KJV is based on the majority text, the textus receptus. The catholic church is guilty of revisions. Communion is NOT supposed to be made a common thing.
Buy me the book, and I will read it. Are you buying?
A faith that is based on faith and works is a form of polytheism.
Sure. If you’ll buy a car and let me use it. lol
By thinking that heaven can be obtained by works is the belief through ‘reason’ that we have the power to ‘earn’ our way there.
It denies that Christ’s work alone is what is needed. We in essence make ourselves a ‘god’. I’m not saying that is what you personally believe.
This discussion of “works based salvation” can easily get off track; I’ve seen it happen before on countless threads.
Catholics do not “work” their way to Heaven, at least not in the way you appear to be suggesting. Just like bdeaner, I used to be an “evangelical Christian” so I am fully aware of that kind of mindset and in particular, its aversion to “works”.
The crucial question that everyone must ask themselves WRT this question is, “What are ‘works’ FOR in the Catholic Church?” Catholics don’t believe (at least in a strict theological sense) that our works alone are for “getting to Heaven”. Our works are to conform us to the example, the image if you will, of Christ. Remember (speaking of the Book of Revelation) “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven”. (c.f. Rev 21:27)
A dung heap covered by pure white snow is NOT “clean”. It’s still unclean, it just looks better. But in substance, it’s still unclean.
We literally must be as pure and Holy (both outside AND inside) as Christ to enter Heaven. This is the “narrow gate”. This is the high standard. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get that “clean” on our own.
The works we do are in COOPERATION with God the Holy Spirit. He gives us the graces necessary to DO these works in the first place. He gives us these graces via the Sacraments. bdeaner is an excellent witness of this restorative power, I believe. His powerful testimony on the thread “Pope concerned in decline in confessions” thread is a witness to this fact. The fact of the Holy Spirit transforming HIM (bdeaner), setting him free from the addiction he mentioned there, via the Sacrament of Confession.
Similarly, all the other Sacraments are (ordinary) ways we receive grace from God. With this grace we are set free from our sin. With this grace, we are (slowly) transformed into the image of Christ, that is, after receiving the Grace of God, we CAN do “good works”, and these “good works” are ways we conform to the image of Christ.
IOW, think of the good works done as “exercises”, spiritual exercises if you will, that form us into the image of Christ, so that we may “share in His divinity” c.f. 2 Pet 1:4. You can also think of it this way: The graces God so generously pours out to us are the “food” we need to “do” the “exercises”.
Therefore, ONLY with this grace can we get to Heaven; it is NOT “BY our works” that we “earn” our way to Heaven, as if our works were the ORIGIN (the “food” in my last example) of our transformation (our “exercises”). Quite the opposite.
Our “salvation” is only found in configuring ourselves to Christ, that is, in the “transformation” of ourselves (into someone who is fully human, by the way, like Christ was/is fully human, like Adam was before the Fall; it’s beneficial to meditate on that phrase as applied to Christ and ask oneself, “Why is Christ described as FULLY human and not just merely “human”) The Grace of God is the origin of our salvation (”not by our works lest any man should boast”); our free will cooperation with His Grace is what allows Him to continue the good work He began in us. (c.f. Phil 1:5-11)
Now, given the topic of this thread, you may wonder, “Well then, how is the Catholic Church ecumenical? There are no Catholic Sacraments in other churches.” The answer to that can be summed up thusly: God gives us the Sacraments in the Church as ORDINARY means by which to obtain His Graces. But God can (and does) choose to dispense His Graces in any way He chooses, thus the previous points in the OP regarding “invincible ignorance” flow from this understanding.
Absolutely I stand with God’s word. All ‘modern’ versions of the Bible are based on the Westcott and Hort secretive modifications of the original Greek. Westcott and Hort practiced necromancy, were members of the Apostles Club (a secretive group that practiced necromancy, seances and were Unitarist in their beliefs). They even were followers of so-called “Christian Socialism.” Westcott and Hort did not believe in the Holy Trinity.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God
T here is no difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law...
The ceremonial law deals with our relationship with God and the moral law deals with our relationship with man...They are all the same law as can be seen in Romans 7...
Your council of Trent and your Catholic church fathers knew better than to separate the two as can be seen here...
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
It doesn't get any more clear than that...
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The UNGODLY are justified...NOT those that do GODLY works for justification...
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Without works...Without works...Without works...
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
You don't and can't work your way out of sin...PLUS, your sin is covered...
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
I realize this verse is completely alien to you guys but those of us who study the scriptures and BELIEVE everything God says know exactly what this means...Praise God...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
You'll notice it does NOT say we might be justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ AND our righteous, moral works...
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them
ALL the things...Every one of the things in the Law...The moral and the ceremonial...
Doesn't matter what you believe...What matters is that God is very clear about Grace without works and a person would have to be a fool to teach about another gospel...
That's like reading a History of Saddam Hussein, written by Saddam Hussein...
Thank God there is a non-Catholic church history out there to be read and understood by non-Catholics...
No more of a proof problem than your religion has...How many of the writings of your church fathers were manufactured by your religion after the fact???
Well of course...That true of any and all material written against the Catholic church in the last 2000 years...
What specifically makes you a Christian???
I didn't say that. I think you'd have trouble demonstrating such a thing.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.