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To: Ottofire
From the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

These lines taken from the catechism of the catholic church demonstrates that the teaching of the church has not been changed since the Council of Florence, but our understanding of God's desire for the salvation of all men leaves room for him to save whom he will. and in whatever way he sees fit.

For more information, see here:

Vatican II & Ecumenism: What Did the Council Really Say

God bless.
447 posted on 06/28/2009 8:33:13 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner
From the Catechism: "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

So sayeth the church leaders. But nowhere in that said in The Holy Bible. That issue is serious enough that if is not mentioned as being so in the Bible then a person must question it vs what the Bible says. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light". Add to that John 3;16. Salvation is simple. So simple a child can accept its terms. It is a free gift of Grace through Jesus Christ to all who believe and ask to receive it. But it's not obtained by following the laws or opinions of a church oligarchy {for lack of a better word}. No ones church laws, opinions, or doctrines can do this. Not yours not mine not any ones.

Salvation can only come from and through Christ alone. It is His Baptism in His blood of our very souls that saves us. Remeber what John The Baptist said about Christ and how He would Baptize us? An act that takes place the very instant we receive Him as Lord and Savior. It is the most simple act written in The Bible and man by nature tries to make it far too complicated, conditional, and legalistic.

489 posted on 06/28/2009 9:36:55 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgement? Which one say ye?)
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To: bdeaner

But bdeaner, Vatican II takes what is clear in Florence and ignores the fact that ALL outside the Catholic faith are thrown into hell, whether by no fault of their own or not.

I read what the Catechism says and then re-read the statement from Florence and they just do not jive.

Again Florence [with commentary added]:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, [who are pagans by choice? Or through no fault of their own?] but also Jews [again with Vat II these are only those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it] and heretics and schismatics [ditto] cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation [does this include separated brethren? I thought we have to be part of a church with apostolic tradition to have real sacraments???], and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, [How can one who rejected the gospel shed their blood for Christ, as you tell me the original language suggests???] unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).

Again, this is one counsel saying one thing and then a later counsel saying something completely different. I cannot see any way to have them agree. This is quite clear that those Vatican II says are separated brethren unless they remain in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church and benefit from the sacraments of said church cannot be saved.

I would like to point out that according to the written word of the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 1 and 3, all in the world are judged as unrighteous, and only those that have submitted to God’s will can be washed clean. Again, as Paul points out, the natural and carnal man cannot choose to do good in God’s eyes, and only the creation of a heart of flesh and a spiritual rebirth, which is caused by the Holy Spirit, not by the will of man, can cause someone to want the things of God.

This is where I think that Florence was nearly right, but had wandered from the clear teachings of Holy Scripture. Only the invisible church, those who are born from above, the ecclesia, will be saved. All outside this body is damned, all willfully enjoying the sin nature that Adam’s fall caused to be our birthright.

Of course, all I am basing this on is only the clear writings of the Old and New Testaments, who we agree were God-breathed.


532 posted on 06/29/2009 12:34:02 AM PDT by Ottofire (Philippians 1:21: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.)
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