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The “Necessity” of Being Catholic (Ecumenical Caucus)
The CHN Newsletters ^ | James Akin

Posted on 10/25/2009 9:52:48 AM PDT by narses

One of the most controversial papal documents ever released was the bull Unam Sanctam, issued in 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII. Today the most controversial part of the bull is the following infallible pronouncement: "Now, therefore, we declare, say, define, and pronounce that for every human creature it Is altogether necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff."

This doctrine is extraordinarily controversial. Some Catholic extremists claim (contrary to further Church teaching, including a further infallible definition) that this means everyone who is not a full fledged, professing Catholic is damned. Non Catholics find the claim offensive, sectarian, and anti Christian in sentiment.

Most Catholics who are aware of the definition find it embarrassing, especially in today's ecumenical age, and many try to ignore or dismiss it, though even liberal Catholic theologians admit it is a genuine doctrinal definition and must in some sense be true.

Its truth was reinforced by Vatican II, which stated: "This holy Council ... [b]asing itself on Scripture and Tradition ... teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation.... [Christ] himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16, John 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Lumen Gentium 14).

Many modems explain this doctrine in a way that robs it of its content. In the 1950 encyclical Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII, who admitted the possibility of salvation for non Catholics, lamented that some Catholic theologians were "reducs an exclusivist view of salvation, this teaching does not mean that anyone who is not a full fledged Catholic is damned. As further Church teaching has made clear, including a further doctrinal definition, it is entirely possible for a person to be saved without being a professing Catholic. Formally belonging to the Church and formally being subject to the Roman Pontiff are normative rather than absolute necessities,

An absolute necessity is a necessity which holds in all cases with no exceptions. A normative necessity is usually required, though there are exceptions. An example of normative necessity in everyday American life is the practice of driving on the right hand side of the road. This is normally required, but there are exceptions, such as emergency situations. For example, if a small child darts out from behind parked cars, it may be necessary (and legally permitted) to swerve into the left hand lane to avoid hitting him. Thus the necessity of driving on the right hand side of the road is a normative rather than an absolute necessity.

Whether it is a normative or an absolute necessity to be united to the Catholic Church depends on what kind of unity with the Church one has in mind, because there are different ways of being associated with the Catholic Church.

A person who has been baptized or received into the Church is fully and formally a Catholic. Vatican II states: "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops" (Lumen Gentium 14, Catechism of the Catholic Church 837).

But it is also possible to be “associated" with or "partially incorporated" into the Catholic Church without being a fully and formally incorporated into it. Vatican II states: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter" (Lumen Gentium 15). Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3; CCC 838).

Those who have not been baptized are also put in an imperfect communion with the Church, even if they do not realize it, if they possess the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Pope Plus XII explains that the "juridical bonds [of the Church] in themselves far surpass those of any other human society, however exalted; and yet another principle of union must be added to them in those three virtues, Christian faith, hope, and charity, which link us so closely to each other and to God.... [I]f the bonds of faith and hope, which bind us to our Redeemer in his Mystical Body are weighty and important, those of charity are certainly no less so.... Charity ... more than any other virtue binds us closely to Christ" (Mystici Corporis 70, 73).

Understanding this distinction between perfect and imperfect communion with the Church is essential to understanding the necessity of being a Catholic. It is an absolute necessity no exceptions at all to be joined to the Church in some manner, at least through the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. However, it is only normatively necessary to be fully incorporated into or in perfect communion with the Catholic Church. There are exceptions to that requirement, as the Council of Trent taught (see below), though it is still a normative necessary.

In our discussion below, the word "necessary" will mean "normatively necessary," not "absolutely necessary."

When it comes to the question of being a Catholic, that is both a necessity of precept and a necessity of means. It is a necessity of precept because God commands it, for "the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ," Lumen Gentium 14 (CCC 846). It is a necessity of means because the Catholic Church is the sacrament of salvation for mankind, containing all the means of grace. "As sacrament, the Church is Christ's instrument. 'She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all, ''the universal sacrament of salvation, 'by which Christ is' at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God's love for men... (CCC 776, citing Vatican II's Lumen Gentium 9:2, 48:2, and Gaudiam et Spes 45: 1).

The Offense of the Gospel

To many this teaching sounds extremely offensive, sectarian, and anti Christian. But is it really? While non-Catholic Christians balk at the claim one must be a Catholic to be saved, many do not balk when it is said that one be a Christian to be saved. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are well known for claiming precisely this. Many say it is an absolute necessity no exceptions allowed and are critical of Catholics for saying some non-Christians may make it into heaven. They claim that in allowing this possibility the Church has compromised the gospel.

(For a scriptural rebuttal to this, see Acts 10:34 35, in which Peter declares that anyone who fears God and works righteousness is acceptable to the Lord. See also Acts 17:23, in which Paul says some Greeks worshipped the true God in ignorance. And see Rom. 2:13 16, in which Paul states that some gentiles who do not have the law of Moses meaning non Christian gentiles, since they do have the law of Moses may be excused by their consciences and declared righteous on the day of judgment.)

Vatican II stated: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life . . . . But very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasoning, having exchanged the truth of God for a lie and served the world rather than the Creator (c.f Rom. 1:21 and 25). Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. Hence, to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s commands, ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Mark 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions” Lumen Gentium 16).

We would cite the works of any number of popes prior to Vatican II to show this (for example, Pius IX’s allocution, Singulari Quadem, given the day after he defined the Immaculate Conception in 1854, or his 1863 encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, or Plus XII's 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis), but to make short work of the matter, let us look at an infallible definition from the Council of Trent, whose teachings were formulated in one of the most bitterly polemical and least ecumenical periods in history, and which to radical traditionalists is an absolutely unimpeachable source.

Trent on Desire for Baptism

Canon four of Trent's "Canons on the Sacraments in General" states, "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them ... men obtain from God the grace of justification, let him be anathema [excommunicated]." This is an infallible statement because anathemas pronounced by ecumenical councils are recognized as infallibly defining the doctrine under discussion.

Trent teaches that although not all the sacraments are necessary for salvation, the sacraments in general are necessary. Without them or the desire of them men cannot obtain the grace of justification, but with them or the desire of them men can be justified. The sacrament through which we initially receive justification is baptism. But since the canon teaches that we can be justified with the desire of the sacraments rather than the sacraments themselves, we can be justified with the desire for baptism rather than baptism itself.

This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent's Decree on Justification. This chapter defines justification as "a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the sons' of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior." Justification thus includes the state of grace (salvation). The chapter then states that "this translation, after the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God' [John 3:5]. " Justification, and thus the state of grace, can be effected through the desire for baptism (for scriptural examples of baptism of desire, see Acts 10:44 48, also Luke 23:42 43).

Only actual baptism makes one a formal member of the Church; baptism of desire does not do so. Since justification can be received by desire for baptism, as Trent states, justification and thus received without formal membership in the Church. The desire for baptism is sufficient.

Implicit Desire

Later Catholic teaching has clarified the nature of this desire and shown it can be either explicit or implicit. One has explicit desire for baptism if he consciously desires and resolves to be baptized (as with catechumens and others). One has an implicit desire if he would resolve to be baptized if he knew the truth about it.

How does implicit desire work? Consider the following analogy: Suppose there is a person who is sick and needs a shot of penicillin to make him better. He tells his physician, "Doc, you've got to give me something to help me get well!" The doctor looks at his chart and says, "Oh, what you want is penicillin. That's the right drug for you." In this case the man had an explicit desire for a drug to make him better whatever that drug might be and the appropriate one was penicillin. He thus had an implicit desire for penicillin even if he had not heard of it before. Thus the doctor said: "What you want is penicillin." This shows that it is possible to want something without knowing what it Is.

A person who has a desire to be saved and come to the truth, regardless of what that truth turns out to be, has an implicit desire for Catholicism and for the Catholic Church, because that is where truth and salvation are obtained. By resolving to pursue salvation and truth, he resolves to pursue the Catholic Church, even though he does not know that is what he is seeking. He thus implicitly longs to be a Catholic by explicitly longing and resolving to seek salvation and truth.

Papal and conciliar writings in the last hundred years have clarified that those who are consciously non Catholic in their theology may still have an overriding implicit desire for the truth and hence for Catholicism. Pope Plus XII stated that concerning some of "those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church ... by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer" (Mystici Corporis 103).

How does this work? Consider our example of the sick man who needs penicillin. Suppose that he thinks that a sulfa drug will cure him and he explicitly desires it. So he tells the doctor, "Doc, I'm real sick, and you've got to give me that sulfa drug to make me better." But the doctor notices on his chart that he has an allergy to sulfa drugs, and says, "No, you don't want that; what you really want is penicillin." In this case the person's primary desire is to get well; he has simply mistaken what will bring that about. Since his primary desire to be well, he implicitly desires whatever will cause that to happen. He thus implicitly desires the correct drug and will explicitly desire that drug as soon as he realizes the sulfa would not work.

As papal and conciliar writings have indicated, the same thing is possible in religion. If a person's primary desire is for salvation and truth then he implicitly desires Catholicism even if he is consciously mistaken about what will bring him salvation and truth. He might be a member of some other church, yet desire salvation and truth so much that he would instantly become a Catholic if he knew the truth concerning it. In this case, his primary desire would be for salvation and truth wherever that might be found rather than his primary desire being membership in a non Catholic church.

However, the situation could be reversed. It is possible for a person to have a stronger desire not to be a Catholic than to come to the truth. This would be the case when people resist evidence for the truth of Catholicism out of a desire to remain non Catholic. In this case their primary desire would not be for the truth but for remaining a non-Catholic. Thus their ignorance of the truth would not be innocent (because they desired something else more than the truth), and it would constitute mortal sin.

Even though some radical traditionalists are disobedient to the papal and conciliar documents which teach the possibility of implicit desire sufficing for salvation, the Church has still taught for centuries that formal membership in the Church is not an absolute necessity for salvation. This was the point made by Trent when it spoke of desire for baptism bringing justification. The issue of whether desire for baptism saves and the issue of whether that desire can be explicit or implicit are two separate subjects which radical traditionalists often confuse. If we keep them separate, it is extremely clear from the Church's historic documents that formal membership in the Church is not necessary for salvation.

Justification and Salvation

To avoid this, some radical traditionalists have tried to drive a wedge between justification and salvation, arguing that while desire for baptism might justify one, it would not save one if one died without baptism. But this is shown to be false by numerous passages in Trent.

In the same chapter that it states that desire for baptism Justifies, Trent defines Justification as "a translation ... to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God" (Decree on Justification 4). Since whoever is in a state of grace and adopted by God is In a state of salvation, desire for baptism saves. If one dies in the state of grace, one goes to heaven and receives eternal life.

As Trent also states: "Justification ... is not merely remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby an unrighteous man becomes a righteous man, and from being an enemy [of God] becomes a friend, that he may be 'an heir according to the hope of life everlasting' [Titus 3:7]" (Decree on Justification 7). Thus desire for baptism brings justification and justification makes one an heir of life everlasting. If one dies in a state of justification, one will inherit eternal life. Period. This question of whether formal membership is necessary for salvation is thus definitively settled by Trent. It is not. Informal membership, the kind had by one with desire for baptism, suffices.

This was also the teaching of Thomas Aquinas. He stated that those who have no desire for baptism "cannot obtain salvation, since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through whom alone can salvation be obtained. Secondly, the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill chance he is forestalled by death before receiving baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of 'faith that worketh by charity' [Gal. 5:6], whereby God, whose power is not tied to the visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: 'I lost him whom I was to regenerate; but he did not lose the grace he prayed for... (Summa Theologiae 111:68:2, citing Ambrose, Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).

The question of whether desire for baptism needs to be explicit or implicit is a separate issue which was not raised by Trent, but which has been dealt with repeatedly by popes and councils since that time. Still, Trent alone shows that the statement in Unam Sanctam teaches a normative necessity for formal membership, not an absolute one. Those who desire but do not have baptism are not formally members of the Church, yet they are linked to the Church by their desire and can be saved.

What is absolutely necessary for salvation is a salvific link to the body of Christ, not full incorporation into it. To use the terms Catholic theology has classically used, one can be a member of the Church by desire (in voto) rather than in actuality (in actu).

In A.D. 400, Augustine said, "When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body ... All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark" (Baptism 5:28:39).

And in the thirteenth century, Aquinas stated a person can obtain salvation if they are "sacramentally [or] mentally. . . incorporated in Christ, through whom alone can salvation be obtained," and that "a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of 'faith that worketh by charity' [Gal. 5:6], whereby God, whose power is not tied to the visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly" (ST 111:68:2).

Private Judgment?

What the radical traditionalists have forgotten is that they are not the interpreters of previous papal statements; the Magisterium is, and their personal interpretations may not go against the authoritative teaching of the current Magisterium.

The idea that they can by private conscience interpret centuries old papal decrees puts them in the same position as Protestants, interpreting centuries old biblical documents. The radical traditionalist simply has a larger "Bible," but the principle is the same: private interpretation rules! This completely defeats the purpose of having a Magisterium, which is to provide a contemporary source that can identify, clarify, and explain previous authoritative statements, whether from the Bible, Apostolic Tradition, or itself

Much of the current flap over Feeneyism could be avoided if conservative Catholics would remind themselves of the fact that it is the Magisterium, not them and their private judgment, which is the interpreter of previous Magisterial statements,

The Necessity of Evangelism

The same is true of those who misuse papal and conciliar statements on the other side, privately interpreting them in a way contrary to what they explicitly state that all religions are equal, that every religion leads one to God, and that there is no need for evangelism. The Church teaches the exact opposite!

While elements of truth may be found in other religions (for example, the truth that there is a supernatural world), elements of truth do not make equality in truth.

In fact, it can be the presence of elements of truth which make a counterfeit believable and lead one away from God. A lie is not credible if it bears no resemblance to reality, as illustrated by the serpent's lie to Eve, which most definitely contained elements of truth Adam and Eve did become "as God, knowing good and evil" (Gen. 3:5, 22) but it was the believability of the serpent's lie that led Adam and Eve away from God.

So though it is possible for a person to be led toward God by elements of truth that are found in a false religion, this does nothing to diminish the need for evangelism.

Vatican II may teach that it is possible for "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church" to receive salvation, but it immediately follows it up by stating that, despite that fact, "very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and served the world rather than the Creator (cf. Rom. 1:21 and 25). Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. Hence, to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command, 'preach the Gospel to every creature' (Mark 16:15) takes zealous care to foster the missions" (Lumen Gentium 16).

And Pope Pius XII stated concerning "those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church ... we ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in he Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the society of glorious love" (Mystici Corporis 103).

These quotes show the Church's insistence on people's need to receive evangelization to hear the good news but most fundamentally evangelism is necessary because Christ calls us to dispel all ignorance concerning him and the means of salvation he has established (including the Church), for Christ commands, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19 20). We are to dispel all ignorance, including innocent ignorance, for we are to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation" (Mark 16:15).

Those who represent, even through silence, the Magisterium as not requiring and stressing the urgent need for world wide evangelism are distorting the teaching of the magisterium as much as those who represent it as saying absolutely no one who is not formally a Catholic can be saved.

(For a look at what the early Church Fathers believed, and how they supported both the necessity of being Catholic and the possibility of salvation for non Catholics in some circumstances, see "The Fathers Know Best: Who Can Be Saved? ", This Rock, Nov. 94.)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis

I believe there are a number of instances where the Bishop of Rome, during the first 400+ years, TRIES to tell other Bishops what to do, without their accepting it. In this letter, a Bishop is telling laity to accept an elder...which is not exactly radical teaching for any church...except Baptists!


181 posted on 11/03/2009 8:19:00 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger; Kolokotronis; annalex; MarkBsnr; Mr Rogers
Again with the duplicity! So you people haven't studied koine greek at all: you ARE greek [sic], but pass yourselves as scholars to everyone who isn't!

For the record, to refresh your memory, in #117 I wrote: "Well, try presbeia (the way it was pronounced back then in the 1st century). Presevyia is a modern-Greek pronunciation, but the spelling is the same in either case — πρεσβεια. That's why fundamental knowledge of Greek helps when discussing concepts developed in Greek, so as to avoid transliterational confusion. Presbeia gives 43,000 hits.

And, based on that you conclude that I am Greek but have not studied Greek?!? And I thought your Jude 11 was odd...

And when did I pass myself as a scholar? Please provide post number and quote. Evidence building skills. Try working on them a little harder. When I read your stuff, it makes me recall that psychiatrist story with circles and triangles...

And for the record, I have studied koine greek [sic] on the university level, though not very successfully, and long ago

I hate to ask how long were you at a university considering that you seem to think Greek is written in lower-case letters for some strange reason—consistently!

And I hate to think how much you learned about Greek considering that it never occurred to you that presvyia could be transliterated as presbeia, while complaining that presvyia returns only 4 hits.

What utter falsehood! There is nothing in greek [sic] that can't be explained in english [sic] provided the one doing the explaining has a thourough knowledge of both languages, and isn't a pedantic blowhard

Anyone who speaks more than one language knows very well that some things simply cannot be expressed in another languages directly, but only approximately. I think Kolo is right concerning ΟΩΝ

182 posted on 11/03/2009 8:29:08 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: papertyger; Kolokotronis
But neither did they deny it, did they? Otherwise, you would have produced it by now. Glass houses, indeed! :P

How can you deny something that never existed? When Pope +Leo I (5th century) argued for strong papacy based on the Bible, he did not use Jude 11 or Numbers 16 as scriptural "evidence" that Moses prefigured Peter and Peters' successors at Rome.

If he did, the Church would have denied it, because no one in the Church, Latin or Greek, understood it to mean that. What Pope argues that Jude 11 or Numbers 16 does? As far as I know, they use Matthew 16 for that purpose.

183 posted on 11/03/2009 8:38:28 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: papertyger; Kolokotronis
PT to kolo: Every time I expose your solipsism...

LOL! Kolo is using solipsism? Is that what you learned in your Greek course at some university? Are you sure you are not confusing it with sophism...? :)

PT to Kolo: And mabye you better look up the word "caveat" while you're at it...

You are telling a lawyer of 30 years of practice to look up what caveat means? LOL!

184 posted on 11/03/2009 8:53:41 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: papertyger; MarkBsnr
Yeah...princes of the Church, princes of Israel...no similarity THERE

Where does the Bible say princes of Israel? And I thought only the caridnals are the "princes" of the Church, not all bishops. And since when are bishops compared to secular rulers?

185 posted on 11/03/2009 9:07:09 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: papertyger; Kolokotronis
I already demonstrated how you can not substantiate your claim of "contradiction" in violation Trent, nor can you demonstrate Feenyism without ignoring my qualifier in taking up YOUR challenge.

Before you go on any further, it is time perhaps for you to demonstrate just whose teaching do you espouse here other than your own? Which Pope of Council or Magisterial pronouncmeent expresses your views on this subject? I think it is disingenuous for you to ask for evidence when you have none to offer to back up the interpretations you are spouting.

186 posted on 11/03/2009 9:13:23 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: annalex; Mr Rogers
Yet, the initial number 12 was related to the 12 tribes of Israel

Why would he do that if he knew (or should have known) Israel would reject him? And why would he say he was sent only for the lost tribes of Israel? But, then, he also doesn't know the date of his return...hmmm.

187 posted on 11/03/2009 9:27:24 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: annalex; RogerS
Be it as it may, the letter of Clement does contain that claim implicitly, by referring to the rod of Aaron.

We don't know at which point in time that was isnerted into the text or whether it was part of the original. But we do know that the First Letter of Clement appeals to reason, arguing that someone who is without blemish should not be deposed. But, the Epistle of Clement is not a pristine document either, as so many present it to be. For one, Clement repeatedly refers to the OT as scripture, but never to any references to the NT (mostly Pauline Epistles).

Here are more interesting facts about I Clement.

So, whatever we read in them, keep in mind that no matter what it says, it is also a "a modification of the text to suit the later spirit of the Roman church," something so often encountered with all documents of yore. The details of it shows that beyond any doubt (reversing the Pauline teaching on authority, etc.). Note also that it refers to bishops as "elders."

What I am saying is that although the authenticity of the original author is not so much disputed, the letter cannot be taken as Gospel, knowing that changes have been made in it.

Prudence therefore suggests proceeding with a grain of salt and not reading too much into it.

188 posted on 11/03/2009 10:07:43 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis
I just gave you an example of an important piece of patristic literature where a bishop of Rome corrects someone [ in huis jurisdiction] whom he accuses of sedition and implies Aaronic privilege. [perhaps, perhaps not; it could be a latter-day addition, as dmeonstrated in previous post]
189 posted on 11/03/2009 10:12:15 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: annalex; kosta50

“I just gave you an example of an important piece of patristic literature where a bishop of Rome corrects someone whom he accuses of sedition and implies Aaronic privilege.”

Alex, the writings of The Fathers are full of instances where a Patriarch or Metropolitan corrects other bishops. There is even the use of the story of Korah in those corrections and by the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Constantinople. The consensus patrum, it seems to me, is clear. The story is used to support hierarchial ecclesiology. The Fathers knew the story, Alex. Its clear they didn’t connect it to papal supremacy.


190 posted on 11/04/2009 3:41:37 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kosta50; Mr Rogers

To show continuity from the geographical Israel to the Catholic Church, the true Israel.


191 posted on 11/04/2009 6:49:05 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: kosta50

The issue here is St. Clement’s reliance on the Old Testament to draw the link to the priesthood to Aaron. If you have evidence that that part was inserted you need to present the evidence.


192 posted on 11/04/2009 6:54:01 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Kolokotronis
Its clear they didn’t connect it to papal supremacy

The implication, however, is there; it comes with the very idea of hierarchical leadership. I do not dispute that papal supremacy is a latter historical development; it would be as anachronistic for the Fathers to discuss it as, for example, discuss the use of electricity. What I am saying is that the concept of multiple autocephalic churches that absolutely, never-ever should have a hierarchical top is a later invention also.

193 posted on 11/04/2009 7:02:04 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“The implication, however, is there; it comes with the very idea of hierarchical leadership.”

The implication of what, Alex? Clearly not papal supremacy. That “primacy” is of the “esse” of The Church? That, I think, is what is implied.

“I do not dispute that papal supremacy is a latter historical development; it would be as anachronistic for the Fathers to discuss it as, for example, discuss the use of electricity.”

I agree.

“What I am saying is that the concept of multiple autocephalic churches that absolutely, never-ever should have a hierarchical top is a later invention also.”

Certainly that was not the case after the 2nd century and certainly isn’t the case now.


194 posted on 11/04/2009 7:24:54 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex; kosta50; Kolokotronis

“To show continuity from the geographical Israel to the Catholic Church, the true Israel.”

So the Catholic Church is the True Israel? Well, maybe...Israel certainly had apostasy and punishment!

“The issue here is St. Clement’s reliance on the Old Testament to draw the link to the priesthood to Aaron.”

I’m sure I’ll annoy both Orthodox and Catholic by pointing out the New Testament knows nothing of the office of priest. Deacons? Yes, and the qualifications for deacon were listed. Elders? Yes, and likewise the qualifications were given.

Priests? Nope. The Priesthood of Aaron was to offer sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin. Hebrews - and yes, it was disputed for some time - says:

“For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...

...When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord:

I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

Not only does the writer of Hebrews not JOIN us to the priesthood of Aaron, but he CONTRASTS how inferior was Aaron’s priesthood to that of Jesus.

In fact, “He does away with the first in order to establish the second.”

So...can someone tell me how a Bishop of Rome can legitimately link the Church to Aaron’s Priesthood?

To paraphrase the marriage ceremony, ‘What God has parted, let no man put together’!


195 posted on 11/04/2009 7:27:55 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Kolokotronis

I agree that a case for papal supremacy, of the kind the Pope enjoys in the Latin Church cannot be made from these examples and apply it to the Eastern Churches, but a case for papal primacy can. Where exactly lies the difference? I wish the committee studying the 1st millennium papacy every success.

I was simply reacting to some sweeping statements made earlier, to the effect that no hint at the institution of papacy can be found in patristic literature.


196 posted on 11/04/2009 3:41:14 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Mr Rogers; kosta50; Kolokotronis

The Church is the True Israel, yes.

Protestant translations routinely mistranslate the Bible as pertains to the office of priests and bishops.

Both “presbyteros”, priest and “episcopos”, bishop occur in the New Testament in numerous places.

But more important is the question not of terminology but of function. The foundational verse for Christian priesthood is “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me” (Luke 22:19). Neither “priest” or “bishop” is used, but what we have here is Christ taking on the role of the priest giving the Eucharist and immediately commanding those present do it likewise. This establishes Christian ministerial priesthood: men consecrated to offer the sacrifice of Christ to their flock.

It is true that the office of bishop (that is, a priest capable of ordaining other priests) was not fully distinct from the office of priest because in most churches, given the small numbers of the faithful, the bishop was able to offer the Eucharist without delegating it to a priest, with the help only of deacons.

It is also true that the Christian priesthood is not a mere continuation of Old Testament priesthood, for obvious reasons. It is a full-scale replacement.


197 posted on 11/04/2009 3:52:53 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Mr Rogers; kosta50
"Neither “priest” or “bishop” is used, but what we have here is Christ taking on the role of the priest giving the Eucharist and immediately commanding those present do it likewise. This establishes Christian ministerial priesthood: men consecrated to offer the sacrifice of Christ to their flock."

Mr. R, Alex is right on the money with this comment. One of the earliest icon depictions of Christ is as "Christ the High Priest". Christians viewed Christ as the "High Priest" for at least 10 centuries before anyone heard of the Reformers.


198 posted on 11/04/2009 4:18:59 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis

“Protestant translations routinely mistranslate the Bible as pertains to the office of priests and bishops.”

Ummm...no. They translate what the words meant at the time, rather than what they came to mean after hundreds or a thousand years.

From Wiki:

“Some modern comentators believe that these presbyters may have been identical to the overseers (episkopoi, i.e., bishops) and cite such passages as Acts 20:17, Titus 1:5,7 and 1 Peter 5:1 to support this claim.[2][3] The earliest post-apostolic writings, the Didache and Clement for example, show the church recognized two local church offices—elders (interchangeable term with overseer) and deacon.”

“[2] Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 1997 edition revised 2005, page 211: “It seems that at first the terms ‘episcopos’ and ‘presbyter’ were used interchangeably ...”
[3] Cambridge History of Christianity, volume 1, 2006, “The general consensus among scholars has been that, at the turn of the first and second centuries, local congregations were led by bishops and presbyters whose offices were overlapping or indistinguishable.”

Christ was seen as High Priest at least since Hebrews was written:

“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself...

...For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” — Heb 7 / 9

However, the writer of Hebrews doesn’t encourage the idea that the Eucharist is a sacrifice, requiring a human priest. For one thing, it is repeatedly pointed out that the sacrifice of Jesus is PAST, and that “he did this once for all”. And it also points out that Jesus is the one acting as Priest, not any human. He offers himself - he is not offered by a man.


199 posted on 11/04/2009 4:48:18 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Mr Rogers; papertiger
Magnificent icon.

For those wondering, the four winged characters surrounding Christ are the Holy Evangelists, referred by their symbols of man (St. Matthew), lion (St. Mark) ox (St. Luke) and eagle (St. John). Often all four have wings.

The "ο ων" that PaperTiger was quizzed upon makes its appearance, as it does always, on the nimbus of Our Lord. It is translated as "the being" or "the existence" and is a reference to the divinity of Christ by reminding us that "through Him all things were made".

200 posted on 11/04/2009 4:57:41 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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