The “Necessity” of Being Catholic (Ecumenical Caucus)

The CHN Newsletters ^ | James Akin

[narses]

This is an Ecumenical thread. Please follow the Religion Moderator's Guidelines for Ecumenical Threads

[Soothesayer9]

I have always found it interesting that the Catholics deem baptism necessary, yet baptize INFANTS.

[rickomatic]

Unless and until the papacy or other church figure can show me where in the Word of God this doctrine comes from I will trust the Lord Jesus Christ and his shed blood on Calvary for my sins for my eternal salvation. His Word and His sacrifice is sufficient for me. I will never put my faith in the teachings of mere man, whether he is elevated to a position of authority, unless said doctrine is in line with the inerrant Word of God.

[narses]

What part interests you? The Sacramental nature of the Gifts of Our Lord are pretty clear. Salvation is a free gift, no? Infants can receive those gifts, no?

[narses]

Very good.

What version of the “Word of God” do you believe to be inerrant? And why?

[RobRoy]

I just read the rules. I have a strong opinion, but I’ll pass on this thread.

[narses]

Thanks for the bump.

[rickomatic]

Very good. What version of the “Word of God” do you believe to be inerrant? And why?

Any of the translations (notice I did not say "version") which have been faithfully translated by honest theologians familiar with the original tongues in which they were written, and the historical context when they were written. One can compare several of these when it comes to the basic tenents of the faith and pretty much come up with the same core beliefs. Even of one throws out the passages that "conflict", you still have the same core. I do not see in that core any mention of salvation being dependent on "the Church". All my readings tell me that my salvation is solely dependent on Christ's sacrifice, and my acceptence of that. If you can show me othewise, we can discuss it. I am not a theologian. I am merely a sinful man saved by the Grace of God.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

Never felt it was necessary. Since the only type of church mentioned in scripture is the local church, I never really felt the need to submit to any “authority” pretending to be greater than that.

[narses]

So name the translations you feel are inerrant please.

[narses]

In your belief system, what does the word “Church” mean?

[Religion Moderator]

This Religion Forum thread is labeled “ecumenical” meaning no antagonism is allowed.

[Kolokotronis]

Am I to understand that something which is “altogether necessary” is not “absolutely necessary” in Roman Catholic speak?

[Petronski]

I will never put my faith in the teachings of mere man...

Good to see you reject sola Scriptura.

[narses]

It translates poorly I think. :)

In fact it is consistent - if you have a desire to do what God wants you to do, and you die in a state of Grace as a Gift from God that saves you - you have been subject to exactly what every Pope (and every other Bishop) would want for you, a happy death and the Eternal Beatific Vision.

[narses]

We aren’t there yet. Let us see which translation by which group of mere men he believes to be inerrant, and why.

[Kolokotronis]

“It translates poorly I think. :)”

Oh, I don’t know. The Latin isn’t that complex. How would you translate this:

“Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus dicimus, definimus et pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis.”

“In fact it is consistent - if you have a desire to do what God wants you to do, and you die in a state of Grace as a Gift from God that saves you - you have been subject to exactly what every Pope (and every other Bishop) would want for you, a happy death and the Eternal Beatific Vision.”

Well that all sounds very nice, but its not what the Latin of Unam Sanctam says at all.

This Bull really is something of a tar baby for those who insist that no Pope has ever been fallible while declaring “dogma”. Of course, its really nothing more than a rehash of the 11th century Dictatus Papae of Gregory VII. The politics surrounding its issuance, Boniface VIII’s condemnation as a heretic by a council of bishops and archbishops and his death soon thereafter on account of embarrassment it is claimed, make for a somewhat less than spiritually inspiring backdrop for this unfortunate and innovative “dogma” of the Latin Church.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

In your belief system, what does the word “Church” mean?

It means what the word ekklesia in Greek means, and as it is used in both sacred and profane Greek written sources - a called-out assembly that is drawn from a larger body of people, and which is both visible and separate in charactre.