Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock
I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.
Answer:
Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.
Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."
None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?
Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).
In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?
What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)
My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.
For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.
Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.
For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.
Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.
We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.
Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.
I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.
I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.
The heap of false, man-made teachings of heretics, including but not limited to sola fide, sola Scriptura, TULIP, and others.
Traditions of men...REPENT!
I’m sorry it bothers you that I don’t want to play your game of denying the historic faith to curry favor with Protestants, or of feigning gross offense at everything Protestants here say about the Church and having to go running to the Religion Moderator crying about it. That is all very childish, and I am sure the Moderator has long since been very exasperated about everyone’s feigned “hurt” feelings on the subject.
But I’m a big boy. Its fine with me if Protestants want to say whatever they want to about our Church, our Faith. The truth on this matter is well known and easily found by anyone who wishes to do so. The witness of Catholics cannot be better than simple straightforward honesty and simplicity.
What is sad is when Catholics adopt a Janus approach of two-face duplicity, where they deny their own faith despite it being well known to all.
Gamecock called you on that #11.
Absolutely not.
How does one borrow Boolean semantics?
Do you believe that the Pope is infallible as defined by Vatican I? Do you believe the current Pope is the rightful pontiff?
The sources you site are not infallible sources and though have much merit do not rise on a teaching that must be held by all the faithful. Salvation outside of the Church is well explained in Dominus Iesus.
You're the expert with the experience, read your own posting history.
Protestants realize that Rome holds a very special place in Catholic ecclesiology. It is the home of the Apostolic See, the seat from which the Bishop of Rome serves your Church. You hold the Pope to be the Bishop of Rome, the Patriarch of the West, and First among equals in the apostolic college. When speaking ex cathedra about matters of faith or moral, you hold him to be infallible. His position is considered with such high honor that no individual Catholic stands within his rights to pass judgment upon him and the papacy itself has played a unique and important role in European History. The pope is the foremost figurehead of the Church as an institution and its main representative here on earth. He holds that honor by virtue of being the bishop of the city of Rome.
Can you honestly take it as a slight when non-Catholics find themselves inclined to identify your Church with Rome by calling it the Roman Catholic Church? Catholics take great pride in the papacy, which is intimately linked to Rome - I am not certain as to why you see this as an opportunity to beat people over their heads for their "ignorance" instead of something to be proud of. Maybe you think that people who use the term are simply limiting the Church's claim to be "Catholic" in nature. I have to disagree. Calling the your Church the "Roman Catholic Church" does not necessarily limit the catholicity of the Church itself - instead, it seems to be a matter of recognition that the Catholic nature of your Church is intimately and inseparably linked to that See based in Rome.
None of this is to bash you or to start an argument with you. I just honestly cannot understand the need to be so insulting and combative about this when people do not necessarily wish you ill.
You are not accurately presenting the teachings of "the historic faith," if by that you mean orthodox Catholicism.
The following are not trick questions.
Who is the Pope of Rome at the present time? What is his regnal name? His baptismal name? How sure are you of your answers to the three foregoing questions?
Why do you suppose Mary would withhold that Grace from so many millions of Protestants??? You nor I can find anything that remotely resembles that statement in the scriptures so one has to rely on the tradition of your religion for that truth...Why hasn't Mary give me that grace???
I’m sorry it bothers you that I don’t want to play your game of denying the historic faith to curry favor with Protestants...
I've done no such thing: I've neither denied the Catholic faith nor attempted to curry favor with anyone concerning any compromise of Catholic faith.
...or of feigning gross offense at everything Protestants here say about the Church and having to go running to the Religion Moderator crying about it.
Feigning? Mindreading is not permitted on the Religion Forum. Neither have I gone running to the RM crying about anything.
But please, continue.
It's very revealing to observe.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You're really not in any position to blame me for that.
Ask her.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
That's not mind-reading. He asked me repeatedly for definitions. Shall I presume he asked for them though he did not need them?
You know what?
Never mind, you're right. It's quite possible he knows exactly what the terms mean but insisted on asking me anyway.
I don't agree with that statement at all. Of course the explicit words to that effect aren't there, but neither are a lot of other things ... an orthodox, detailed explanation of the Trinity, for example. It had to be deduced. "I don't see it" isn't the same thing as "it isn't in there".
...Why hasn't Mary give me that grace???
God gives us graces through Mary, ultimately because God gave us Christ, the source and font of all grace, through Mary.
The answer to your question is the same for any question of the form "Why doesn't God give grace X to person Y?"
He sovereignly chose not to, for reasons that may not be comprehensible to us, but are certainly both holy and just. Or, he chose to give those graces, but in a manner that person Y could resist them if Y so chose ... and Y did choose to resist that grace.
(That verse in Romans about potter and clay isn't only found in the Calvinist Bible.)
“Its fine with me if Protestants want to say whatever they want to about our Church, our Faith.”
So much for defending the Faith. What if what the Protestants wrongly say about the Church leads folks into error? You know, like this thread?
“The truth on this matter is well known and easily found by anyone who wishes to do so.”
And it will be just a little easier if somebody with questions comes across this thread I reckon.
Freegards
Naw, I don't pray to false gods, to give me gifts that only God can dish out, or for any reason for that matter...
I'd be mighty nervous if I received a supernatural gift from anyone/anything other than God...
God hasn't given you that grace through Mary yet, as far as you know!
We're still prayin' for you. Straight to the Big Man, and through our brothers and sisters in heaven. ;-)
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