Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
Verification is evidently important to you, dear kosta. But it is not always possible. Take, for instance, the case of the Italian Franciscan priest Padre Pio, of whom it is said that he received five stigmata of Christ at age 31, and suffered them for over 50 years, until his death in 1968. He was continually being examined by doctors and scientists over this period. And they could verify that Padre Pio did, in fact, have these wounds, and that they bled out daily. But they could not verify the cause of these wounds; the fact that he suffered them and still lived to a ripe old age (81) was a complete mystery to them — and to the rest of us who know Padre Pio's story as well, I'm pretty sure.
Amen to that, dear spirited irish! For that is the very truth of the matter.
Thank you ever so much for your insightful essay/post!
I don’t believe verification is that important to such folks at all.
They don’t insist on it in any other area of their lives.
It’s a sham.
It’s a straw dog.
They wouldn’t dream of insisting on it in any other relationship—they’d have no relationships.
It’s merely to rationalize rebellion against God.
And "rationalize" is the operative word here. The ratio involved is their own self-willed preferences. In the end, this procedure comes to nothing, explains nothing.
Ah...so here is Calvinism: That God has already judged those who rebel, and already chosen who to save, with no regard for their believing - they are condemned without hope, for God’s pleasure.
In Calvinism, believing is a smokescreen - God gives it to the elect, and withholds it from the condemned. Thus, we are saved by grace thru election. Faith and belief - mentioned nearly 500 times in the New Testament - are just fairy tales for the uninitiated...since, as Dr E has pointed out, she hasn’t met anyone who came to Christ as a Calvinist!
But here is what the Apostle John wrote in scripture - that which is God’s breath:
Jhn 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Jhn 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
Jhn 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Jhn 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
Jhn 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Jhn 4:39 Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”
Jhn 4:41 And many more believed because of his word.
Jhn 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Jhn 4:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”
Jhn 4:50 Jesus said to him, “Go; your son will live.” The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way...The father knew that was the hour when Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” And he himself believed, and all his household.
Jhn 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Jhn 5:38 “and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
Jhn 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
Jhn 5:46 “If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform?
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Jhn 6:69 “and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jhn 7:5 For not even his brothers believed in him.
Jhn 7:31 Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, “When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?”
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jhn 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Jhn 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him. So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Jhn 9:18 The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight
Jhn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
Jhn 9:36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”
Jhn 9:38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me,
Jhn 10:26 “but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Jhn 10:37 “If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
Jhn 10:38 “but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
Jhn 10:42 And many believed in him there.
Jhn 11:15 “and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Jhn 11:26 “and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Jhn 11:27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”
Jhn 11:40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”
Jhn 11:42 “I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”
Jhn 11:45 Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him,
Jhn 11:48 “If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
Jhn 12:11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and believing in Jesus.
Jhn 12:36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Jhn 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Jhn 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;
Jhn 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Jhn 12:46 “I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Jhn 12:47 “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Strong’s Numbers VisibleShow Strong’s Help
Jhn 13:19 “I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.
Jhn 14:1 Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
Jhn 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Jhn 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Jhn 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Jhn 14:29 “And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe.
Jhn 16:9 “concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Jhn 16:27 “for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Jhn 16:30 “Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”
Jhn 16:31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe?
Jhn 17:8 “For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Jhn 17:20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
Jhn 17:21 “that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Jhn 19:35 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe.
Jhn 20:8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;
Jhn 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
No, I don’t expect Calvinists to read those. Too long, too boring, and John was undoubtedly “a minor theologian who wrote popular commentaries” - not a learned and wise man like John Calvin! Why read scripture when you can simply read The Institutes?
So let me answer your question with a single sentence.
Q: “Were they judged before Jesus said “For God so loved the world....?”
A: We were all judged conditionally, “for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Or as you quoted, “And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”
So what must we do? Repent, and believe. Jesus said that is the ‘work’ that God requires of man! But then, what seminary was Jesus President of? What did HE ever do? He died as a common criminal...
“A: We were all judged conditionally, “for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
So then God either does not know the future but waits to see how things turn out or when God says “whosoever believeth in Him”, He already knows who they are and is speaking to them.
Which is it?
God knows who will or will not believe. He does not by a secret act give life to some, and give those belief. Some reject him, others accept him.
INDEED.
Thx for your kind reply.
“God knows who will or will not believe.”
Alright, if He knows who will or who will not believe then the “whosoever believeth in Him” really applies to those He knows will believe otherwise God is just tantalizing the unbelievers.
But since it is foreknowledge, rather than God choosing, the men who reject Christ do so on their own volition and to their own doom.
It remains true then that “Whosoever will...” MEANS whoever will, not “Those I have chosen and secretly given life to...”
And we remain saved by grace thru faith rather than grace thru election.
“But since it is foreknowledge, rather than God choosing, the men who reject Christ do so on their own volition and to their own doom.”
According to what you are saying God is making an offer He knows is not valid to some since by foreknowledge or whatever, he knows that only certain ones will believe and therefore they are the ones to whom the offer is directed. The offer is useless to those God knows will not believe.
We are not questioning how they come to believe here but to whom the offer is directed. “Whosoever believeth...” must refer to those whom God knows will believe since God does not do useless things.
“According to what you are saying God is making an offer He knows is not valid to some since by foreknowledge or whatever, he knows that only certain ones will believe and therefore they are the ones to whom the offer is directed.”
I am saying no such thing. The offer is valid to everyone. He knows who will choose what, but THEY choose. And they will live or die by the choice they make. It is a real choice.
As a rough analogy...if I give my son (in his 20s) some cash now, and tell him to spend it wisely, I know (OK, I predict with a high probability of being correct) he will waste it. The money would be real, his choice would be real, the money would be wasted...but my call to him to spend it wisely would be real & valid.
Obviously, I don’t know the future. God does. But the idea is the same - God knows what the real choices will be before they are made, without forcing them to be made that way.
““Whosoever believeth...” must refer to those whom God knows will believe since God does not do useless things.”
A genuine offer made to all, knowing many will reject it, isn’t a useless thing. In the end, God will still have sons predestined to be like Christ, and those who have rejected him will have demonstrated his patience, mercy, goodness & justice. When they are condemned, they will have no excuse before God. And all will see (I believe those condemned will know as well) that God has been both very loving, very merciful, and very just.
And thus God will be glorified, not for being powerful enough to destroy anyone he chooses, but for being merciful, long-suffering, loving and just.
And thank you for your reply, dear kosta50!
kosta50 keeps insisting that we prove God to him.
Yet those of us who have been born again know God personally. Proof is absurd to us.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Cor 6:19
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5
Man is not the measure of God.
And signs and miracles will not convince a person who does not have “ears to hear.”
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - I Corinthians 1:18-25
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. – Luke 16:31
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: - Matthew 12:39
Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24
God did not “owe” Adamic man anything. Our salvation is a gift.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. – John 3:18
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. – I Corinthians 15:42-45
It’s merely to rationalize rebellion against God.
Man is not the measure of God.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!
BLUE-DUNCAN: "According to what you are saying God is making an offer He knows is not valid to some since by foreknowledge or whatever, he knows that only certain ones will believe and therefore they are the ones to whom the offer is directed. The offer is useless to those God knows will not believe."
That paragraph is Scripturally and logically coherent. And you don't have an answer for it. A prudent man would then seek to reconcile his understanding of the Bible with these true statements.
"For the promise is made unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." -- Acts 2:39 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." -- John 17:9 "Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him." -- Numbers 16:5
You have no answers for these verses.
Calvinists don't ignore that verse, nor any of the Bible. God does love the world. The world was created by Christ, for Christ, through Christ. How could God not love the world?
You set up the pins of your own imagination and then you knock them down. You don't get points for playing both hands.
But in order to believe in Christ a man must first be reborn by the Holy Spirit.
As others have noted, you spend a lot of claiming victories that don't exist.
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