Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Are Catholics “Born Again?”
Catholic Sensibility ^ | March 13, 2010

Posted on 03/13/2010 1:24:38 PM PST by NYer

Our parish has a Q&A feature in which staff members tackle the queries left in a comment box or e-mailed to the parish. I volunteered to reply to the question titled above:

The root of this principle is in John 3:3-5, and it reads:

Jesus said to (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Scripture scholars note that the Greek word ἄνωθεν (anothen) means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus seems to be referring to the first meaning, and Nicodemus seems to misinterpret the Lord, taking the second meaning.

Misunderstandings aside, the notion of being reborn in baptism, in “water and Spirit,” tells of the great significance of the sacrament, and of the commitment to the Christian life it implies. Jesus certainly preaches that those who wish to see and participate in the kingdom of God will experience such a momentous change in their lives, that the notion of a second birth is not an exaggeration.

Many Christians speak of being “born again,” as a graced event in which people, usually adults, experience the Lord in such a significant way that it’s like a whole new life for them. And ideally, this is what all Christians should experience when they commit themselves to Jesus Christ. The question might be raised: does it happen only once? Or is it possible, through a continuing conversion, to go progressively deeper into a Christian commitment to God? The witness of the saints might suggest that this continuing experience is the mark of a godly life.

In baptism, and even as infants, Catholics are “born again,” in the sense Jesus means: “being born of water and Spirit.” It’s no accident that the baptismal font at our parish was designed to suggest a tomb, and that in baptism we participate in death and rebirth, as Saint Paul describes, “We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.” (Romans 6:4)

As a child grows, an openness to God’s grace is necessary. The same is true for adults. Baptism is not a magical event, and neither is the evangelical or charismatic experience of being “born again.” Each of these experiences is an opportunity for God’s grace to work in us. But we always have the freedom to choose: we can close ourselves off from divine grace, or we can cooperate with God’s will and live out a Christian life after being “born from above.”

Image Credit: painter Edward Tanner (1899), Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, Philadelphia.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: bornagain; catholic; salvation
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 101-150151-200201-250251-290 next last
To: Belteshazzar; Marysecretary
Baptism is intended to lead to Christ, to bring the person in question to faith in Christ, and make him or her a disciple of Christ,...

Interesting post, but you have it backwards.

The Biblical example is first belief in Jesus (repentance) and then Baptism. There are no examples of infants being baptized and then becoming believers in Scripture. It's a great tool to ensure church membership remains high, but in the end it fills the seats with people who don't know The Gospel and are only there because it is a custom they've grown up with.

151 posted on 03/14/2010 9:35:50 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: sasportas; Psalm 73; Belteshazzar; Marysecretary; RnMomof7
Born of the water (water baptism), yes, but not without faith being excercised, not without repentance. Not by infant baptism, rather someone being baptized who is old enough to make exercise faith and repentance.

Once you have Faith you are given the gift of Grace by God. I don't believe there is a waiting period until you are then baptized. If there was this requirement Grace would be from Faith and works (action of being Baptized).

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The Biblical model of baptism is after being saved.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

It is belief that saves not baptism the condemnation is for those that don't believe not those who aren't baptized. Infant baptism is great for church membership but it is not the Biblical model. However, it is not an issue worth dying over since baptism does not impart Grace.

My experience has been Born Again Christians understand this.

152 posted on 03/14/2010 10:04:19 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: ScubieNuc

The Letters of the Apostles are rife with passages indicating that one must live Christ’s words, not just talk about them.

If mere belief was enough for salvation, why would Paul write to various groups of converts cautioning them that they were on the wrong track? Weren’t they “saved” by virtue of being Christians? No. He wrote because they were in jeopardy of losing their salvation by improper beliefs, misunderstandings, and impure acts.

In other words, their actions were not in keeping with belonging to Christ. Paul seemed to think that was pretty serious!


153 posted on 03/14/2010 10:57:53 AM PDT by Melian ("The seed is the same but the soil is different..." ~Fulton Sheen)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: wmfights

Good post and true, as usual. Thanks,Wmfights.


154 posted on 03/14/2010 12:09:10 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: Belteshazzar

If baptism is meant to lead people to Christ, why doesn’t it? I know way too many, including my own relatives, who have NO interest in Christ and they were baptized as infants. No, God draws people to Himself. Baptism is only effective AFTER you have come to Christ.


155 posted on 03/14/2010 12:14:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona

And that is very sad. You CAN have that blessed assurance Desdemona. When you are born again, God’s Spirit witnesses to your spirit that you are His. You do NOT have to wait until you die to know that. Blessings, Mary


156 posted on 03/14/2010 12:18:21 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: NYer

bookmark


157 posted on 03/14/2010 12:22:51 PM PDT by GOP Poet (Obama is an OLYMPIC failure.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona

The refiner’s fire happens here on earth, not in some fictional place. We are refined for the Master’s use by the cross we bear, by our dying to self...which always hurts.


158 posted on 03/14/2010 12:22:52 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona

Yes, we are to serve but that does not save us. Faith saves us and works are a natural result of our salvation. He gives us works to do when we have committed our way unto Him.


159 posted on 03/14/2010 12:27:43 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: seoul62

Amen.


160 posted on 03/14/2010 12:28:41 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona

You just proved my point that you depend upon “works” to please God. We do good works because we love the Lord, but, works will not add one iota to your salvation. And, when you do your works grudgingly, they don’t glorify God at all, but, you do them to try to add brownie points for God’s favor. What bunk!


161 posted on 03/14/2010 12:38:26 PM PDT by Catsrus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 148 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary
Pardon me, but I don't particularly care what you think. I'm secure in my beliefs and don't need anyone's "sadness" or pity, thank you very much. The "born again"...notion is not one I believe in. I find the Prodigal Son approach to be more authentic. Humble oneself and ask for forgiveness rather than assuming some entitlement.

The gospel this morning was Luke's Prodigal Son. I may be more like the older son than the prodigal, but that doesn't make me any less joyful in the Church, and in what I do for my fellow believers in Christ and those who we help return to Him. It is the call to return over and over, every day, that holds hope and promise of achieving Heaven. This is why one of my prayers in the evening is an Act of Contrition, one that is addressed to God with no intercessor, just as we do in the Sacrament of Penance. If this offends, that is not my intention. It's simply the way it is.

162 posted on 03/14/2010 12:38:30 PM PDT by Desdemona
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona

Why worry if you’ve ‘done enough’? Maybe God planned only ONE good work for you to do in His Name. Don’t worry about that. Good works won’t save you anyway.


163 posted on 03/14/2010 12:38:34 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 148 | View Replies]

To: ADSUM

Dutchboy has already ‘found God.’


164 posted on 03/14/2010 12:39:43 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: Belteshazzar

And, once again, you err. 1 Peter 3:21 does not mean you are saved by baptism. So, you can believe what you want, and fight against God’s word. Its your soul at stake here, not mine. You call God a liar when you hold tight to another gospel. And, yes, we are to look at scripture in light of other scriptures. In other words, to search all scripture to determine the true meaning of God’s Word.

To not do so, is to call God a liar, and I’m not the one doing that. So, I suggest you look in the mirror.


165 posted on 03/14/2010 12:42:09 PM PDT by Catsrus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 128 | View Replies]

To: Desdemona

Too bad you have rejected my kindness. I do pray for your eternal soul if you don’t believe in being born again.


166 posted on 03/14/2010 12:42:28 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary
You are not changing my mind, so please quit trying.
167 posted on 03/14/2010 12:44:23 PM PDT by Desdemona
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

I was merely writing some apologetics, trying to correct some falsehoods that are repeatedly posted here and any number of places about what the Church teaches and why Catholics do what we do. It's all about actually doing what Christ asked us to do - serve others in His name. Do we know if we've done enough? No. We don't. We never do until we are judged as our fleshly life ends. And yes, I do believe in Purgatory and being purified through suffering - sometimes here on Earth. There are victim souls who suffer their whole lives and then go straight to God. Would that I could be one, but alas, no, I'm not. At least I don't think so.

None of it is as simple as "if you believe, then you are saved." It just isn't. That may be difficult to accept, but that's the way it is. We have to constantly, every day, turn to conversion from sin and sinful habits that includes pride and other all too human failings. Every day we have to guard against it. No one sacrament, liturgy, prayer, Scripture passage - any of it - can do that, but all of it together forms a sort of support system that acts as a bulwark against temptation.

I'm off this thread. I shouldn't have given in last night.

168 posted on 03/14/2010 1:05:00 PM PDT by Desdemona
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: NYer
I have not read all the comments. And I cannot begin to count the number of times I have been asked if I was born again.

And for years, I could not begin to understand what people were asking when this question was asked.

The day I discovered that somebody ( and I sure would like to know who it was) changed the WORDs ‘born from above’ to again it was total relief that I could finally answer this question that has no basis from what Christ was actually teaching Nicodemus.

The subject is ‘who’ can ‘see’ the kingdom of God and what is required. And Christ exhorted Nicodemus in verse 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, “Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

So the instruction was NOT new, Genesis in describing the formation of the Adam, says the flesh was not living until the breath of life, which means soul was breathed into the Adam's nostrils. And Moses does not pen one word regarding the creation of the souls/spirits but they certainly did exist.

Then the book of Ecclesiastes describes the flesh and the soul/spirit bodies. In Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. So there was cause for Christ to expect a master of Israel to know the answer to this subject.

Now if all souls already belong to the Heavenly Father long before they were placed into the flesh at conception, when were the souls/spirits created.... They had to be in existence when this was penned.

Paul says for further clarification in Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This is not talking about baptism, this is describing the children partaking of flesh and blood which begins at conception as Luke describes to us in Luke 1:41-45.

The answer to the question by Nicodemus is given in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

The soul/spirit existed before this ‘flesh’ age, and only those souls/spirits that choose to be born in the ‘water’ at the time of conception will have opportunity to see the kingdom of God.

Peter says there are three different heaven/earth ages IIPeter 3 and all Peter was doing was expounding on the instruction Christ put forth in His discussion with Nicodemus.

AND yes ‘Catholics’ are born from above, every one, good, bad, and middle of the road that gets planted at conception are born from above.

169 posted on 03/14/2010 1:06:51 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Your ability to communicate in writing is a gift to be cherished.


170 posted on 03/14/2010 1:08:05 PM PDT by verity (Obama Lies)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: usconservative; IrishCatholic; ADSUM; fish hawk
"I wonder what Christ would think of one self professed Christian disparaging their brothers and sisters in Christ, fomenting dissention for the enemy as you've done here.

Check your heart."

"Yea, hi Satan.

Sorry, it won’t work. We Catholics worship Christ,the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. (Three of a kind beats a full house of Satanic hatred.)

You can just go back to your underworld."

It is typical for Catholics to attempt to silence those who speak against that monstrosity from Rome. Bashing and personal attacks are expected. For usconservative to ignore the words of IrishCatholic and criticize my condemnation of Rome's demonic theology is perhaps due to the inability to see the light.

Catholics may, or may not, be individually born again. The process of the Holy Spirit awakening the elect to their rescue can take days, months, even years. That some of you are still entangled in the error of Rome does not surprise any of those who now clearly see that Rescuer from Israel is the only way out of the darkness. Nothing you do, nothing you say, nothing you initiate, think, believe, or perform will cause you to escape from the death of your trespasses and sin. But what is impossible with man is possible with God. That is the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course it is not the news from Rome.

When one begins to recognize their new life was not a product of themselves (the way Lazarus found himself made alive from the dead), of course one can and should try to grow toward the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus. But even then, we recognize that it God who causes the real growth.

As long as one stays stuck in the "self" religion of Rome, they will try personal holiness, try to make oneself worthy, try to make oneself fit for heaven and they will flail about, striking and hating those who remind them of their helpless state and the error of semi-Pelagianistic Rome. It is to be expected. We all did it. But, remember this reminder...you are the clay, He is the potter.

171 posted on 03/14/2010 1:22:56 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Markos33

For every verse like that, I can quote you one that makes it clear actions play the ultimate role in salvation. The New Testament is rife with passages indicating that one must live Christ’s words, not just talk about them.

If mere belief was enough for salvation, why would Paul write to various groups of converts cautioning them that they were on the wrong track? Weren’t they “saved” by virtue of being Christians? No. He wrote because they were in jeopardy of losing their salvation by improper beliefs, misunderstandings, and impure acts.

In other words, their actions were not in keeping with belonging to Christ. Paul seemed to think that was pretty serious!

Paul was not ashamed of his cause in 2 Timothy 1:12. His cause was to bring souls to Christ. He is asserting his faith and trust in Christ’s love and mercy. But in other passages he is very clear that those who don’t live Christ’s message are in jeopardy- even if they are Christians.


172 posted on 03/14/2010 1:25:56 PM PDT by Melian ("The seed is the same but the soil is different..." ~Fulton Sheen)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr

Salvation is a gift freely given. We must accept the gift. And we have the responsibility from that moment on to live the good news.

A person can be “born again” or “saved” and then lose his salvation by backsliding.

Judas believed in Christ and had a “born again” moment when he became a follower of Christ. Was he saved? What about later, when he betrayed Christ? Was he still saved? What about after that, when he committed suicide? Was he still saved by virtue of that one moment in time that he experienced the emotional rush of being “born again”?

What saves you is perseverance in living Christ’s will. Paul cautioned us to run to the finish in the race. Faith demonstrated in action.

No one knows who’s saved but God. It is presumptuous to assume you are saved. We hope and pray we are, relying on God’s grace and mercy.


173 posted on 03/14/2010 1:38:14 PM PDT by Melian ("The seed is the same but the soil is different..." ~Fulton Sheen)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88

It is typical for Catholics to attempt to silence those who speak against that monstrosity from Rome

wow...slow down, you could actually begin to believe the tripe that you spew. Think really carefully now.......without the Catholic promoting, fulfilling, establishing, protecting, defending, whatever else they could do, there wouldn’t be any protestants. For 15oo years, catholocism was Christianity, there were no lutherans, calvanists, methodists, evangelicals, jehovah’s witnesses, mormans, seventh day adventists, church of god, church of the nazarine.......nothing, just Catholics. There were, of course Moslems and the Catholics pretty much ran their butts out of Europe and elsewhere. (they are back, it’s your turn this time!)I love the “johnny come lately” religions that spring up from nowhere and decide that they are right and that a 2,000 year old, established by Christ, infallible religion has somewhere gone wrong.....Jesus promised to be with the Catholic Church “from now until the end of the age (time)) He still is, come home!!


174 posted on 03/14/2010 3:32:50 PM PDT by terycarl (4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: RedDogzRule

I agree 100%.


175 posted on 03/14/2010 4:33:11 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: terycarl

Good post.


176 posted on 03/14/2010 4:38:21 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: terycarl; fish hawk; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Marysecretary
"...without the Catholic promoting, fulfilling, establishing, protecting, defending, whatever else they could do, there wouldn’t be any protestants. For 15oo years, catholocism was Christianity"

You need to get out more. Read some material not shoved down your throat by Rome. There is a whole world of real truth that says there has always been a group protesting the abomination from Rome. Your historical survey has no connection to reality and their gospel is from the pit.

You may think Jesus spoke about the Catholic Church, but it was the end of the third century before the words were used. The story you hear is rewritten history, friend. We are of the strain of the Apostle Paul and the real Apostle Peter (not the trumped up "first pope" trash peddled by Rome. They can keep the bone they own...we have the man that wrote the epistles and dispelled the humanism Rome holds. Sorry fellas/girls).

Jesus promised to rescue those whom He elected (John 6) and no one whom He did not choose may come close. That is why you will find some pounding on the door claiming they performed miracles (Rome? Medjagorje? Weeping pictures?), but are cast into hell. Rome needs to repent...if it can.

177 posted on 03/14/2010 5:01:12 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: terycarl
Do us a favor and go to Wikipedia and look up the Great Inquisition. More like Protestantism survived INSPITE of the Roman mob.
178 posted on 03/14/2010 5:18:07 PM PDT by fish hawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88
For usconservative to ignore the words of IrishCatholic and criticize my condemnation of Rome's demonic theology is perhaps due to the inability to see the light.

If anyone is unable to see the true light it is you. I'm not a Catholic, I simply do not appreciate those like you who choose to demonize (look at your words above) their brothers and sisters in Christ rather than focus on what unites them in His spirt.

Again, check your heart as it certainly and demonstrably is not full of His love and spirit.

179 posted on 03/14/2010 5:18:34 PM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: fish hawk

Do us a favor and go to Wikipedia and look up the Great Inquisition. More like Protestantism survived INSPITE of the Roman mob

Ahhhhh the inquisition...was it a good period in history, absolutely not, but carried out much more as a political, rather than religous movement....do you recall the burning of “witches in early times....darned Catholics.....oh, wait a minute, those were protestants. All churches are made up of fallible people. Catholics have done some stupid things throughout the years, protestants have done their share, and Moslems are at it as we speak. Jesus never promised that all Catholics were infallible, just that the church is.When christianity was threatened by the protestant revolution, why would you think that those who had protected it for 1500 years wouldn’t be more than a little upset?? St thomas more wasn’t treated too good by the English protestants and many other good people, on both sides were tortured and executed. Evil actions by individuals is normally not a good reason to condemn any organization. There is one true Christian church on earth and it is the Catholic church....you may not agree, but that changes nothing. The Catholic Church is 2,000 years old, doing just fine thank you, and has buildings older than any christian denomination..They didn’t do that by accident!


180 posted on 03/14/2010 5:39:34 PM PDT by terycarl (4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 178 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary

Too bad you have rejected my kindness. I do pray for your eternal soul if you don’t believe in being born again.

WOW, Marysecretary, you’re back!! I just said a special prayer for you at Mass this morning and Halleluia, it worked!!!God works in mysterious ways, you’re still wrong, but you’re O.K.....that’s good.....thanks God!


181 posted on 03/14/2010 5:48:40 PM PDT by terycarl (4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary

You are a walking (sitting?) example of the power of prayer. Hope you are feeling better Mary. God bless. Please keep us posted as to your needs for holy assistance.

As a Catholic I even have the Communion of Saints praying for you! *wink*


182 posted on 03/14/2010 5:52:56 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
I was "saved" from Original sin when I was baptized.

Well, assuming you were baptized as an infant, that would contradict scripture which shows us that salvation comes through confession and repentance. As an infant, you didn't confess or repent anything. You just laid there as someone splashed water on you. That ceremony was probably very nice, but it did nothing to save you.

Romans 10:9,10,14 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


I continue to be "saved" when I confess my sins to God and accept His forgiveness.

So you are saying that your salvation depends on you to continue to confess. That would be salvation dependant upon your works and that also contradicts Scripture.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Now that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to confess our sins to Jesus, our only mediator between God and us (1 Timothy 2:5). What you seem to have confused is the difference between salvation/justification and sanctification.

Salvation/justification work is completely in the finished work of Christ. The only thing we can do about it is either accept Jesus's gift or reject it. That takes faith, but not work. (Eph. 2:8-9)

Sanctification is living and doing the work of Christ, which is what James talks about. These works are a result of Christ/Salvation. They are not what gives a person salvation.
183 posted on 03/14/2010 6:07:10 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: Melian
The Letters of the Apostles are rife with passages indicating that one must live Christ’s words, not just talk about them.

True. However, those same passages don't say anything along the lines of living Christ's words save you. What they say is that a saved person is required to live out Christ's words. There is a difference. One is a belief that salvation comes from your works and the other is that your good works comes about because of your salvation.

If mere belief was enough for salvation, why would Paul write to various groups of converts cautioning them that they were on the wrong track? Weren’t they “saved” by virtue of being Christians? No. He wrote because they were in jeopardy of losing their salvation by improper beliefs, misunderstandings, and impure acts.

Please post the verses which say that people were "in jeapardy of losing their salvation by improper beliefs, misunderstandings and impure acts."


184 posted on 03/14/2010 6:12:01 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies]

To: NYer

BTTT


185 posted on 03/14/2010 6:16:14 PM PDT by DollyCali (Don't tell God how big your storm is...Tell the storm how big your God is!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: usconservative; terycarl; fish hawk; Dr. Eckleburg; Marysecretary; Dutchboy88
If anyone is unable to see the true light it is you. I'm not a Catholic, I simply do not appreciate those like you who choose to demonize (look at your words above) their brothers and sisters in Christ rather than focus on what unites them in His spirt.

I have not followed this conversation but just a quick look back at what Dutchboy was responding to, I would suggest your response could have been directed at terycarl just as well.

The fact of the matter is, if anyone were to study the history of the Protestant Reformation, there are serious issues that Protestants have with Catholics. Many Protestants today are simply "Catholic-lite" in their doctrine-not true Reformers. Consequently, they are aghast when a true Reformer comes along. Protestants today would simply shy away and be embarassed by the works of great Reformers like John Hus, John Locke, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin or Wyncliffe. These men saw the Roman Catholic Church for exactly what it was. However, now it's not politically correct in today's modern and gentile society. We are, after all, "enlightened".

Our goal, as Protestants, among other things is to root out and demonstrate the failings of our belief structures based upon the absolutely inerrancy and infallibility of scripture. That includes all of us, and we should be willing to hear the issues no matter how "insensitive" they may seem. It doesn't do us much good to simply say, "Can't we all get along." when some Christians believe that it's perfectly alright to bow down before relics and pray to Saint Joe that he'll ask Christ to forgive him.

Catholicism today is far worst than 500 years ago when the Protestant Reformers left the Church. It should give one pause when they defend their "brothers and sisters".

186 posted on 03/14/2010 6:16:36 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: ScubieNuc
Well, assuming you were baptized as an infant, that would contradict scripture which shows us that salvation comes through confession and repentance. As an infant, you didn't confess or repent anything. You just laid there as someone splashed water on you. That ceremony was probably very nice, but it did nothing to save you.

Okay, I get it now. It's "my way or the highway" right?

You "born againers" think there is only one way to do things in the eyes of God.

You, and the multitudes like you, insult and denigrate the rites and traditions that people like me grew up with.

Please keep your Bible verses. You use them to cover the disdain you feel for me.

187 posted on 03/14/2010 6:19:36 PM PDT by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88; terycarl
You need to get out more. Read some material not shoved down your throat by Rome.

I guess hate, couched in criticism, is considered part of your church's belief?

188 posted on 03/14/2010 6:23:25 PM PDT by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 177 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
Okay, I get it now. It's "my way or the highway" right?

No, not my way or the highway, but Jesus's way or no way. I don't want you to do anything I say UNLESS you find it supported by Scripture. Research what I say verses what Scripture says. If I'm wrong, fine. But if Scripture says something and you don't do it or ignore it, that's going to be on you to explain to God after you die.

You, and the multitudes like you, insult and denigrate the rites and traditions that people like me grew up with.

Insult or place in the correct prospective according to the Scriptures? Look, traditions are fine...in their proper place. I've participated in a number of traditions myself. The difference seems to be on what you think these traditions or ceremonies are actually doing.

If the Bible said that a certain ceremonie saved a person, then I will proclaim it. However, it's important to know exactly what salvation is and what it isn't. If I don't proclaim what I know to be true, then that would be as evil as if a person knew a bridge was out, but didn't tell anyone about it.

Please keep your Bible verses. You use them to cover the disdain you feel for me.

The Bible is for all, but if you wish to ignore it, you do so at your own peril. I don't have any "disdain" for you. I only have a sincere wish that all would know the saving power of Jesus. When I see people who have a view that in contradiction to the Word of God, I bring it up. If you think the Word or God is wrong or my understanding of it is wrong, you should post where it or I are wrong and why.
189 posted on 03/14/2010 6:33:05 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88

There is a whole world of real truth that says there has always been a group protesting the abomination from Rome. Your historical survey has no connection to reality and their gospel is from the pit

while it’s true that there have always been dissenters....the Jews were first, but as time went by those dissenters became known as heretics....teaching things that were anathema to the newly formed Catholic church. At the first vatican council, several of those were rooted out and exposed for what they were. Throughout her magnificent history, Catholocism has weathered various dissident groups and protestantism is merely the latest. She’ll weather this one too and as protestant churches dissolve and return to the fold, christianity will once again be the church that Jesus envisioned....the Catholic church. The church of England and maybe the ELCA are leaning that way now.


190 posted on 03/14/2010 7:01:11 PM PDT by terycarl (4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 177 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88
Catholics may, or may not, be individually born again. The process of the Holy Spirit awakening the elect to their rescue can take days, months, even years. That some of you are still entangled in the error of Rome does not surprise any of those who now clearly see that Rescuer from Israel is the only way out of the darkness. Nothing you do, nothing you say, nothing you initiate, think, believe, or perform will cause you to escape from the death of your trespasses and sin. But what is impossible with man is possible with God. That is the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course it is not the news from Rome.

When one begins to recognize their new life was not a product of themselves (the way Lazarus found himself made alive from the dead), of course one can and should try to grow toward the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus. But even then, we recognize that it is God who causes the real growth.

As long as one stays stuck in the "self" religion of Rome, they will try personal holiness, try to make oneself worthy, try to make oneself fit for heaven and they will flail about, striking and hating those who remind them of their helpless state and the error of semi-Pelagianistic Rome. It is to be expected. We all did it. But, remember this reminder...you are the clay, He is the potter.

AMEN!

May all those who kneel to Mary and assorted saints be given new eyes to see the idolatry that's staring them in the face as they gaze lovingly at statues of dead people when God alone deserves our prayers.

191 posted on 03/14/2010 7:12:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: Catsrus

OK, let’s try this again, Catsrus (and anyone else who would like to take part). I merely pointed out that 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism saves us. Argue with it all you want. It says what it says. I am trying to get you to look at and meditate upon what the Scriptures say instead of jumping to wild conclusions and accusations, nothing more, nothing less.

So, a simple little test:

1) Our Lord Jesus Christ saves us: True or false?

2) Our faith saves us: True or false?

3) Our works save us: True or false?

I put in 3) just to get that issue out of the way. In case you fear some kind of a trap or disingenuousness on my part, I will supply the answers:

1) True.

2) True.

3) False.

Now, let’s add 4).

4) The two statements: our Lord Jesus Christ saves us, and, our faith saves us, cannot both be true. True or false?

This one I will let you answer. I will wait for your reply.


192 posted on 03/14/2010 8:43:46 PM PDT by Belteshazzar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary

Marysecretary wrote:

“If baptism is meant to lead people to Christ, why doesn’t it? I know way too many, including my own relatives, who have NO interest in Christ and they were baptized as infants. No, God draws people to Himself. Baptism is only effective AFTER you have come to Christ.”

Yes, and I know way too many people who were baptized after profession of faith, sometimes more than once, and they are woefully ignorant of the Christian faith to the point that they really don’t know what they believe or even don’t believe anymore. And what does that prove? Nothing, the same as your observation.

God draws people to Himself. Well, yes, of course, the Scriptures say that very clearly, e.g., John 6:44.

Let me ask you a question. How does one “come to Christ”?


193 posted on 03/14/2010 9:09:08 PM PDT by Belteshazzar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr
"Paradise was a compartment of Hades for all deceased believers, separate from the Torments and separate from the Abyss and the Lake of Fire."

Hell is NOT a physical place. It is a state of spiritual existence for those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.

194 posted on 03/14/2010 9:46:51 PM PDT by Natural Law
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

Comment #195 Removed by Moderator

To: Belteshazzar

You’re missing the point. Baptism does not save us. AS I shared previously, but, it seems apparent that you are very dogmatic and wrong in what you believe.

Hebrews 11:1 gives us the definition of faith. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7, Paul says, “We walk by faith, not by sight.

It is our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repenting of our sins and asking Him into our hearts - His work on Calvary that saves us. Though we can’t see Him, we believe, or have faith.

So, I think your little game is misconstrued.


196 posted on 03/14/2010 11:09:20 PM PDT by Catsrus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: Melian
"For every verse like that, I can quote you one that makes it clear actions play the ultimate role in salvation."

If you wish to take the time then I would be interested in hearing/reading a few.

197 posted on 03/14/2010 11:44:19 PM PDT by Semper Mark ("We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88; IrishCatholic
I revere Christ, alone

Well, actually, as someone outside The Church, you will revere your pastor who you follow who comes up with his own ideas. This is like those who followed the heretics Mani or Marcion -- well-meaning people who thought they were Christians but were outside Christ's Church and followed heretical teachings. Come to Christ through The Church, accept Christ as your savior and God not your pastor.

We've been there for 2000 years and will be there long after your pastor and the heresies he follows are gone -- because The Church is graced by God, led by Christ and blessed by The Holy Spirit, while the man-made heresies are not and hence they die.
198 posted on 03/14/2010 11:44:31 PM PDT by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Dutchboy88; Admin Moderator

Why was the following post removed? It is no more personal or offensive than what it was replying to. It even ends by praying for the conversion of Ducthboy88 to Christianity. Far more charitable than his posting. Isn’t it your policy here to have a thick skin and all that? I think I remember that from previous Catholic attack postings.

Well let’s throw some quotes right back at you:

“It is typical for Catholics to attempt to silence those who speak against that monstrosity from Rome.”

Who cares about silencing you? I simply called you out as being a punk for your rudeness. The question isn’t that you are Satan railing against Christ’s Church on Earth, it’s if you were, how would you be posting otherwise? The answer is, you wouldn’t.
What I have found again and again when seeing the outright hatred of Catholics on these posts is that Catholics don’t care if you aren’t Catholic. They hope you see the error of your ways and will debate theology, but they don’t hate. You and your ilk HATE. That is why there is no love in your heart and why no matter how you mouth the words you are lost.
“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

“Bashing and personal attacks are expected.”

And so you wear the label hypocrite. You revile the faith of Catholics in base terms and scream like a little girl when called on it. Man, Satan, you are a weenie.

“For usconservative to ignore the words of IrishCatholic and criticize my condemnation of Rome’s demonic theology is perhaps due to the inability to see the light.”

“Rome’s Demonic theology.”? Only one of the damned would call the faith to Christ as demonic. By your denigration of Christian faith it shows your black heart.
“He saith to him: Out of thy own mouth I judge thee, thou wicked servant.”

“That some of you are still entangled in the error of Rome does not surprise any of those who now clearly see that Rescuer from Israel is the only way out of the darkness.”

There is no error of Rome. That is your prejudice and hatred. We are taught from birth that Christ is the redeemer. You followers of the fallen angel make up what you believe Catholicism to be, not what it is.

“As long as one stays stuck in the “self” religion of Rome, they will try personal holiness, try to make oneself worthy, try to make oneself fit for heaven and they will flail about, striking and hating those who remind them of their helpless state and the error of semi-Pelagianistic Rome. It is to be expected.”

Catholicism isn’t a “self” religion. It is the faithful following of Jesus Christ as he set down the faith to be. It is unbroken since the time of his crucifixion. Whatever you made up is your personal problem. What is expected is that YOPIS is as rudimentary as your courtesy and love for your fellow Christian. All the hatred is in your heart.

But, I have little patience for you humping my leg with your vileness. So don’t think of it as “striking” you with hatred for it is only mild irritation. The same I would show for those Neo Confederates, Police haters, and Evos here on FR and for liberals in the government and society. I don’t hate any of them. I pity them. Hatred isn’t natural to me, I’m Christian. But I am also not given to allowing those around me to call good evil, and evil good. So I am not above calling you out when you do so.

“13 And he saith to them: Are you ignorant of this parable? and how shall you know all parables? 14 He that soweth, soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown, and as soon as they have heard, immediately Satan cometh and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these likewise are they that are sown on the stony ground: who when they have heard the word, immediately recieve it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but are only for a time: and then when tribulation and persecution ariseth for the word they are presently scandalized. 18 And others there are who are sown among thorns: these are they that hear the word, 19 And the cares of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts after other things entering in choke the word, and it is made fruitless. 20 And these are they who are sown upon the good ground, who hear the word, and receive it, and yield fruit, the one thirty, another sixty, and another a hundred. “

I pray you are converted to Christ in whatever denomination you choose, Catholic- the full faith, or simply Christianity.

“19 Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. 20 If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not? 21 And this commandment we have from God, that he, who loveth God, love also his brother.”

You will find Catholics do not hate. You do. I will say the Rosary for you that you come to Christ.


199 posted on 03/15/2010 12:54:56 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: Natural Law

Hades and its compartments are spoken in Scripture with locative sense. Attribute it to a spiritual domain if it is easier for you to comprehend, but within the spiritual domain it then will be perceived just as real as any physical domain we might perceive prior to the first death.

Since our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, is now in a resurrected body, and consumed meat while here on earth prior to the Ascension, it can be safely implied that Hades is just as perceivable to a physical body as was His locative position with us prior to the Ascension and after the Resurrection.


200 posted on 03/15/2010 3:53:57 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 101-150151-200201-250251-290 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson