Posted on 03/13/2010 1:24:38 PM PST by NYer
Thank you for taking this matter up.
The Bible does say this.
Now, how does this square with all the rest that is written in the Holy Scriptures? If they are, as I believe and as Christendom has believed throughout its long history (I am trying to avoid any denominational partisanship or hot-buttons here), the very Word of God, both infallible and authoritative in all of which they teach and also with Christ the Savior of the world as their focus and very reason for existence, then we must be aware that we can never set one part of Scripture against another. If it seems to be in contradiction of itself, the error will not be found in God’s Word but in our understanding. Again, this is the discussion I have been trying to provoke. It is a discussion that should be respectful, reasonable, and civil.
To arrive at the proper understanding of 1 Peter 3:21 will go a long way in helping us all to understand the proper (biblical) meaning and use of the term “born again/from above” and its connection to baptism. Then we might go a long way toward addressing what this thread is supposed to be about.
All we have to fear is being corrected by God’s Word.
fish hawk wrote”
“Did you know that there is “spiritual baptism” and water baptism?”
Oh?
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6)
The implications of this are quite staggering. But then the implications of all that the Word of God says is quite staggering.
I missed it the first time. I’ll look again...
You have seen it multiple times. The media has gone all out to ensure a laser beam is focused on the Catholic Church. What's missing? Another laser beam or two or three or one hundred, pointing to the society at large. The Catholic Church merits its status by virtue of a central figure. The same cannot be said of the non-Catholic Churches.
Carry on with your little games and erroneous thoughts. Faith does not SAVE us. Faith in the Lord Jesus and repentance for our sins is what saves us. How much plainer can I be?
Good faith offer? Are you selling real estate? If so, I have some free real estate for you. It will cost you nothing, but, also will cost you everything.
Jesus offers us a place in heaven, a mansion, which we can’t buy. It is only available when we accept what Jesus did on the Cross for us. He paid the price for our sins. It will cost you turning your back on the things of this world, and forsaking your sins.
There is no other name under heaven wherein man may be saved. It is the name of Jesus..................
And YET the rest of your post is a defense of pointing fingers elsewhere because the "laser beam" of the press supposedly is pointed at the Roman Catholic church over other institutions, Therefore you added...
"What's missing? Another laser beam or two or three or one hundred, pointing to the society at large."
More excuses.
You've just illustrated my original point.
And you need to do a reality check! Instead of pointing fingers of blame at the Catholic Church, you need to examine your own faith denomination and ask how you can help them with the same problem. John 8:7
But the point of my earlier post was that just once it would be nice to find a Roman Catholic apologist who would simply admit to the problem in Rome without pointing fingers at everyone else.
You then said I've "seen that multiple times."
But in that post, and now again in this post, you prove my point because AGAIN you bring up others' failings.
Let's try it again...
Just once I'd like to see a Roman Catholic criticize the pedophilia scandal in the Roman Catholic priesthood without pointing fingers at everyone else, too.
fish hawk wrote:
“Your own Bible, that evidently you do not study, talks of living waters that are spiritual. And of course even those that don’t study the Bible know of John baptizing believers. Of Course John was baptizing into the “Kingdom”. The spiritual baptism is into Christ. Look it up, I’m not teasing you.”
Isn’t it interesting how so many (note, I did not say all) don’t want to deal with Paul ... or Peter.
As far as “I’m not teasing you” goes, I don’t think you are doing that. I just don’t know what you are doing, or trying to do, or to say. Don’t feel like you have to try explain.
Meanwhile, I’ll stick with the plain language of Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Peter 3:21. And the beauty of it is that I don’t have to abandon any of the rest of the Holy Scriptures.
catsrus wrote:
“Faith does not SAVE us. Faith in the Lord Jesus and repentance for our sins is what saves us. How much plainer can I be?”
Next time I respond to you I will spell out fully that by faith, about which any reasonable person could safely have assumed was faith in the crucified, risen, and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man, I too meant faith in the crucified, risen, and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man. On the other hand, maybe I won’t be responding to you again about faith in the crucified, risen, and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man. I may be too busy embracing the things of the world, cozying up to my sins, carrying on with little games, having erroneous thoughts, and selling real estate.
Have a nice day.
Thx for the ping.
Anyone who believes in the Jesus of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John is “born again”.
Period.
Amen, and I would also like to see some consistent admission that by their own claims Catholic priests are endowed with supernatural powers, as opposed to the clergy of other faiths, or the public at large, and THEREFORE priests should be guilty of this FAR LESS than everyone else. Yet the numbers are the opposite.
My pastor does not claim he is an alter Christus, he does not claim the ability to absolve people of sins, and he does not claim the ability to summon the Holy Spirit to go where he commands at Baptism. Catholic clergy hold themselves out as being superior to the clergy of other faiths. Only they have the direct pipeline to God through their Pope. If ANYONE should receive special protection from this great evil one would think it would be these holy men set above by God.
And yet we see nothing of the kind. We see systemic rampant abuse which is then covered up by superiors. One reason I am certain that I will never convert to Catholicism is that even if it is a legitimate Christian faith for what it stands for on paper, it seems that so few of its leaders are actually practicing that faith.
Constantly.
thanks,
I see no conflict in I Peter 3:21 and the rest of the Bible, but you are correct that we cannot take a view of one scripture that contradicts other scriptures. God is not a God of confusion.
But my point stands, I can’t think of a reference to Baptism where it not in the context of in regards to salvation, so I could not let someone say Baptism has nothing to do with salvation, so I addressed it.
Thanks again.
It is faithful to know you are only worthy of salvation though Christ’s mercy and sacrifice. It is prudent to know you need to continue to try to be worthy of that gift every day of the rest of your life. It is persevering to put what you know about Christ into action.
Christ called the Apostles to action. He wanted them to live His teachings and pass those teachings on to others. He said, “DO this in memory of me.” Not “Know this in memory of me. “
St. Paul also made it clear that of faith, hope and love, the greatest was love. Love is action.
In the beginning was the Word, but He didn’t just stay the Word. He became flesh and lived and breathed and acted and loved. True love and faith requires action. The greatest love was put into action by Christ’s dying on the cross. And Christ reminded us that greater love hath no man but to lay down his life for a friend. Action is the greatest proof of love.
Christ already loved us infinitely. Why did He feel He had to take the action of dying on the cross? Because love, acted upon, is the greatest form of love.
You can see that the Catholic understanding of faith lived in action is closest to what Christ himself did. He didn’t just talk about it.
I’ll be happy to give you my favorite one:
On the road to Emmaus, the travelers minds were not opened when the mysterious stranger quoted Scripture to them. Their minds were only opened to recognize Christ when He took the physical action of breaking the bread.
They already believed in Christ and loved him, but it took putting His request to “DO this in memory of me” to bring them true enlightenment. Then, only then, did they know Him.
There is also Philippians 2:12 where Paul talks about the value of obedience (action following belief) whether he is there to witness it or not. He cautions them to WORK out their salvation in fear and trembling. Why fear unless it can be lost?
In Hebrews 5:9 we see he became “to all that OBEY him, the cause of eternal salvation.”
In Jude 1:3 we are asked to “contend earnestly” for the faith. In verses 4-5 we are told that even if we once “knew all things” we can be destroyed like the Jews who stopped believing in the desert. In 1:6 we hear of the angels who certainly had faith in God, being in His presence, but sinned and were thrown into darkness.
Then there is the parable of the barren fig tree. Because it did not actively produce figs (take action), Christ cursed it.
Why did Christ demand that his Apostles leave everything (actions) and follow Him? Wasn’t believing in Him enough?
In Romans 10:9 one learns one must confess “with they mouth” the Lord Jesus. Again, taking action to affirm your belief. Not just believe deep down in your heart, but speak out. In verse 13, we hear we must CALL on the name of the Lord to be saved. An act of supplication.
In 1 Cor 15:2 we are told we must “hold fast” to the teachings “unless you have believed in vain.” How can you believe in vain? If your heart is not changed by your faith and your actions are not in keeping with Christ’s teachings.
Women could be saved if they continued in faith, love, sanctification and sobriety. A woman had to act out her faith according to 1 Tim 2:12-18.
Obviously belief is first and foremost. But real faith demands action. Christ demanded action. God demanded faithful actions of the Jews as they wandered in the desert. Moses cautioned the Jews to choose Life in their daily existence. Christ constantly pointed out the futility of the pharisees proclaiming their faith while their actions were cruel, prideful and hypocritical.
If one goes through the Acts and the Letters looking for exhortations to DO something, one finds many calls to action. In 2 Cor 5:9-10 we are told we will be judged by what we have DONE, whether it be good or evil. In Gal 5:25 we are reminded that “If we live in the Spirit, let us also WALK in the Spirit.”
In Gal 6:10 We are told that, while we have time, we must WORK good to all men (not just love them). And in verse 9 we are shown there is a way to fail, despite belief. It is if we don’t DO good.
Finally, in Rev 22: 12-15 we hear, powerfully, that when the judgement day comes, He will render to every man according to his works. Not his faith; his works.
These are just a few. I have “actions” scribbled in the margins of almost every page of the Letters.
I may be too busy embracing the things of the world, cozying up to my sins, carrying on with little games, having erroneous thoughts, and selling real estate.
And,might we add, an arrogant attitude? If you took this personal, then I would say - guilty. It was a blanket statement, but, must’ve cut to the quick.
By the way, The Lord hates a haughty spirit. So, while you’re dealing with the above mentioned sins, add haughtiness to your list.
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