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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
OH DEAR!
What did their donkeys do to deserve such fate???
Were THE donkeys speaking heresies, too? . . . hmmmm
"Pray" is one of those English words that has a lot of different meanings, connotations and subtleties. It can mean to worship, adoration, veneration, to hope, and to beseech in the context of religion. Are you saying that there is a scriptural prohibition in all of the meanings of the word?
They would have descended to HONOR CHRIST!
I’ll keep that in mind but I’m not holding my breath.
THX THX
If it’s not God, yeah.
Where did Jesus teach us to pray to anyone but God?
Since you have no basis for this opinion you are participating in mind reading on, dare I say, a biblical scale.
Since the topic of the thread is on the Nifonging (the prejudicial rush to judgment with a presumption of guilt) of the Catholic Church your posts seem only to be an admission accompanied with an excuse for your doing it.
Thank God that you do not speak for Catholics because you have no basis for your presumptions. Being neither a Catholic nor ever having studied the Catechism and Canon law of the Church outside of a few self administered google searches you cannot proclaim any competency on the subject.
Since the topic of the thread is on the Nifonging (the prejudicial rush to judgment with a presumption of guilt) of the Catholic Church your posts seem only to be an admission accompanied with an excuse for your doing it.
INDEED TO THE MAX:
- - -
I fail, at the very least, to see what good praying to someone else for what we are to pray only to God for, is going to do.
Do Catholics really think that God is not going to answer but some redeemed being is? Are they trying to get prayer answered that they are afraid that God won’t answer so they bypass Him?
If God is not going to grant the request for reasons that He alone knows, how is some dead person who is not God going to be able to do it?
When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He said,.....
Matthew 6: 9”This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Just where is the admonition to pray to dead people, or even living people who have died and are in heaven?
For all the emphasis that the Catholics say they put on the gospels and the dissing for theology that they do to Paul, just where does this concept of praying to saints come from? Where in the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels is that found?
This insult tossed at Protestants is in no way what Protestants do or believe, nor is it what Scripture says to believe or how to behave.
Christians believe that the Holy Spirit indwells them as a free, merciful gift from God to His children. The Holy Spirit guides our reading of the Scriptures, making known the truth of God, so that the words themselves truly become "spirit and life."
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63
The words, made knowable by the Holy Spirit, penetrate our hearts and minds and redirect us from the darkness to the light.
Do all Christians get everything right?
Nope. But as Calvin reminded us, without the Holy Spirit as our guide, the Scriptures are just ink on a page.
"For by the Scripture as our guide and teacher, God not only makes those things plain which would otherwise escape our notice, but almost compels us to behold them; as if he had assisted our dull sight with spectacles." -- JOHN CALVIN "Commentary on Genesis" Vol. 1
Therefore, the "sole and final interpretor" is God, the Holy Spirit, refining our understanding and renewing our minds to the truth of Christ risen.
The visible church was created to help men know the truth personally, not to define the truth for them nor to dispense (or withhold) God's grace. The word of God by the Holy Spirit does that, as the Christian church, testifies, and it does that for all who have been given, freely and mercifully, eyes to see and ears to hear.
Mind-reading again, Natural Law. Or at the very least assuming facts not in evidence.
But your post illustrates how Roman Catholic apologists take nothing as truth, even the evidence of their own lying eyes and the words of Jesus Christ, except for what is told to them by Rome.
Amen!
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" -- John 5:46-47"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
snip: Since it seems that presbyterians get all wee-wee’d up about threads critical of their church, they MIGHT realize how it feels. Evidently, that connection is over their heads
Spirited: Long before the Reformation, and long before the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church there was Christian theology. The Christian theology of the Church Fathers.
The enemy must love how the Church has fractured itself. The enemy of course, played no small part in the breakup of the Church, and how wonderful it is to him that not only did it turn against itself, but even after hundreds of years its’ fractured parts still cast aspersions at one another.
A house divided cannot stand. Once the most powerful and influential Church (Roman Catholic) has been decapitated, we can be sure the enemy and his infernal legions will pick off the remainder. And it will be as easy as shooting ducks in a barrel.
And we can blame no one but ourselves. For it will be our stiff-necked pride and our lack of forgiveness that will be our downfall.
Can we not forgive and stand together?
As validated by YOPIS?
Christians believe that the Holy Spirit indwells them as a free, merciful gift from God to His children."
Except of course when those involved are Catholics who arrive at a different interpretation and conclusion than YOPIS?
Therefore, the "sole and final interpretor" is God, the Holy Spirit, refining our understanding and renewing our minds to the truth of Christ risen."
And then only as codified by YOPIS?
Your entire response is aimed at denying any authenticity for the Holy Spirit's guidance when it conflicts with YOPIS.
At this point I don't understand the question. On its face it's something you should be asking God, not me -- so I'm sure I'm not getting what you're asking
They can be recognized for the exemplary lives without having titles added to their names and without prayers being said to them.
What do you mean by "titles?" I don't give titles to Dominic or Catherine of Siena. "Saint" just means "holy."
AS to why I "pray to saints" (I'm done talking about about the terminology -- nothing ever moves on that question, and while I know I bring an attitude and intention to a prayer to St Anthony very different from that which I bring to a prayer to any person of the Trinity I'm pretty confident that I won't be believed when I say so) I'd have to say that it's, in a way, fun and comforting, like hanging with friends.
It's also rewarding. Long before I became a Catholic I was praying to St. Anthony of Padua to help me find stuff ("Obtain for me the finding of" blah blah -- I'm pretty confident Anthony knows that I know that he can't do anything unless God does it in/through him.) Whether it is some grace given to my subconscious mind or some other thing, I am so astounded so often with how a prayer for his help (of intercession or whatever else) is found by my walking immediately to my car keys or whatever the missing item is.
And then I learn that the story is that in addition to all the "wonders" Anthony of Padua was granted a vision of the baby Jesus. And I have always been a kid person -- I was a pediatrics chaplain once and "head teacher" in a church related child-care program -- and I was able to see how worshipping our incarnate Lord included worshipping and loving Him as a child.
I might have seen that some other way, but I'm just as glad that it was through devotion to Saint Anthony that I was led to a richer and deeper love for Jesus.
Tony, Tony, come around
Something’s lost and must be found.
So let me get this right, when you speak on what any or all Catholics believe it is NOT mind reading, but when anyone concludes on what you have posted it is NOT? Just because you post something does NOT make it a fact in evidence nor does your denial disqualify any facts.LOL.
If you haven't noticed here is how it works; When anyone post something that is wrong, goofy, or down right deceitful about the Catholic Church, the Catechism, the Canon, Church history, Catholic clergy or the Church in general I am going to challenge it and call them on it. If you want to avoid my responses don't post anything wrong, goofy or deceitful.
Now put your hall monitor badge away and play nice.
You will note that in ALL of these prayers we are asking for their intercession, the prayer is not to them alone (unless you believe that God IS NOT omniscient).
As for the Blessed Mother, recall that His first miracle was at HER request. When she was entrusted to Saint John on the Cross, she became the mother of the Church. Saint John represented the entirety of the Apostles at the Crucifixion. Some would like to pretend that of the seven “last Words” of Christ, this one was some sort of afterthough and that is absurd.
Keep in mind the prayers for the intercession of the saints has existed throughout Church history and is verifiable as such. Rejection of them is a 16th century invention of man. The fact that something is not explicitely spelled-out in the Bible does not mean it’s forbidden. As far as rejection of the Blessed Mother, even the great Reformers retained their traditional beliefs about her. As best I can tell, anti-Marian rhetoric began sometime in the 19th century when anti-Catholics realized that mainstream Protestants didn’t really hate Catholics like the used to.
Not to worry. There will always be a remnant. Christ abides.
I can ascribe motives to the papacy, just like you can ascribe motives to Protestant churches.
Do you understand the difference?
Can you hear the rules NOW?
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