Then, why base your faith on a "physically unproven" BOM instead of the "physical" Bible for which there IS MUCH physical proof?
Posted on 05/27/2010 8:04:57 AM PDT by restornu
A careful examination of the Book of Mormon reveals many significant doctrines not found in the Bible.
It is easy to underestimate the magnitude of the plain and precious truths restored through the Book of Mormon. Remember, what we find in the book came before the Nauvoo period, before the Kirtland period, even before the Church was organized in New York. The doctrines and information we discover in this book came through Joseph Smith in early 1829.
In November of 1843 the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote the following to a new member of the Church: “The fact is, that by the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics, the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation, which (if they would receive the everlasting Gospel,) would open the eyes of [the world], and make ‘plain the old paths,’ wherein if a man walk in all the ordinances of God blameless, he shall inherit eternal life.”1
In the spring of 1820 Joseph had learned from his First Vision that the churches of his day were teaching false creeds and doctrines (see Joseph Smith History 1:18–19). Several years later, while Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon, he came to understand clearly why the doctrines of the churches were corrupt. From a vision given to the prophet Nephi, Joseph learned that when the ancient biblical prophets and apostles had written their books, they came forth “in purity” (1 Nephi 13:25). Sadly, as their writings went forth, parts of the gospel that were “plain and most precious” and “covenants of the Lord” were “taken away” (1 Nephi 13:26). Nephi saw that these changes and omissions would cause “an exceedingly great many [to] stumble” (1 Nephi 13:29). Satan would gain “great power” through all of this (see 1 Nephi 13:34).
But the Lord prepared the Book of Mormon to “make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away” (1 Nephi 13:40). Moreover, the prophet Mormon, in his final words, reaffirmed that the Book of Mormon was “written for the intent that ye may believe” the Bible (Mormon 7:9).
A careful examination of the Book of Mormon reveals many significant insights not found in the Bible. These precious truths include new insights about biblical people and events, prophecies, visions, and doctrinal principles.
Premortal Existence. Humanity struggles to understand the purpose of life and questions the role of a God in this world. The Book of Mormon records, however, that the “plan of redemption” was laid out in premortal life (see Alma 12:25), that all of the spirit children of God were on the “same standing” there (meaning they had equal opportunity to progress through righteous choices), but some were foreordained to priesthood callings in this premortal state “on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God” (see Alma 13:2–5).
Adam’s Fall and Human Suffering. Many in the Christian world consider the Fall of Adam to be an accident or tragedy. Drawing from his reading of the brass plates, however, Lehi taught that the Fall was purposeful and necessary (see 2 Nephi 2:22–25). Why is there so much suffering in the world and why are humans so flawed? The Book of Mormon teaches us why we have natural weaknesses and how they are designed to turn us to Christ (see Ether 12:27). Agency and opposition are essential to the eternal growth and development of humankind (see 2 Nephi 2:11–16). Thus, this life is a “state of probation” (2 Nephi 2:21) in which our days are prolonged so that we can be “free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil” (2 Nephi 2:27).
Agency. The principle of man’s right to act according to his own will or desires is a major theme throughout the Book of Mormon.2 Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles affirmed that the Book of Mormon “provides some of our most important doctrinal insights on the significance of free agency in the gospel plan.”3 Alma taught that the necessity of agency and its effects ultimately require that there be an Atonement (see Alma 42:9–15). To assist mankind in the use of moral agency, Mormon explained, the “Spirit of Christ [or light of Christ] is given to every man, that he may know good from evil” (Moroni 7:16–19). The purpose and function of the light of Christ are made clear in the Nephite record beyond anything in the biblical text.
The Atonement. Concerning the new light the Book of Mormon shed on the atoning mission of Jesus Christ, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles declared: “Surely the most plain and precious of all truths lost from the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, are the clear and unequivocal declarations of the mission of Jesus Christ, his foreordained role as Messiah and Savior of the world, and the covenantal elements of his gospel, which have been taught from Adam down through each succeeding dispensation. Thus the Book of Mormon’s highest purpose is to restore to the universal family of God that crucial knowledge of Christ’s role in the salvation of every man, woman, and child who now lives, has ever lived, or will yet live upon the earth.”4
In addition to ancient prophecies of Christ’s mortal ministry, the Book of Mormon gives clear examples of the “doctrine of Christ” being taught before the meridian of time (see 2 Nephi 31:1–21). Nephi declared, “we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children … may look forward unto that life which is in Christ” (2 Nephi 25:26–27). Jacob taught that “none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ” (Jacob 7:11). Nowhere in scripture are the breadth and depth and scope of the Atonement so clearly explained as in the Book of Mormon. Various forms of the word atonement appear no less than 35 times in the Book of Mormon, while it is found only once in the King James New Testament (see Romans 5:11) and not at all in the Revised Standard Version.
In Alma 7:11–13 we learn that the Savior took upon Him not only our sins but also our pains, sicknesses, and infirmities that He might “according to the flesh know how to succor [or come to the aid of] his people.” The doctrine of Christ’s redemptive power over little children, while absent from the Bible, was taught with unmatched clarity in Mormon’s epistle to his son Moroni (see Moroni 8:4–20).
Elder B. H. Roberts of the Seventy (1857–1933) explained how the unconditional nature of the Atonement in regard to Adam’s transgression and its conditional nature regarding men’s personal sins is a doctrine “peculiar to ‘Mormonism’ … and is derived almost wholly from the teachings of the Book of Mormon. In that distinction the beauty and glory of the Atonement, the balanced claims of justice and mercy shine forth as no where else, even in holy writ,—much less in the uninspired writings of men. It may be regarded as the ‘Mormon’ contribution to views of the Atonement of Christ, for it is to be found no where else except in Mormon literature.”5 The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32).
First Principles and Ordinances. The Old Testament does not clearly teach the principles of faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and their interrelationship, but Book of Mormon prophets Nephi, Jacob, Alma, and his son Alma all taught the importance of these principles prior to the coming of Christ.6
Church Organization. The Book of Mormon became to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery a handbook of instructions for organizing the Church. Much of the procedural information in Doctrine and Covenants section 20 came directly from the Book of Mormon. Moroni recorded the specific manner of bestowing the Holy Ghost and the necessity of authority to do so (see Moroni 2:2). He also taught the proper way to ordain someone to a priesthood office (see Moroni 3:1–3) and recorded the specific prayers to be used in administering the sacrament (see Moroni 4, 5). Moroni also explained in detail the requirements for one receiving baptism, the purpose for keeping membership records, and the need for the Saints to meet regularly (see Moroni 6:1–6).
Revelation. The Book of Mormon demonstrates and teaches the importance of personal revelation for all.7 From beginning to end it is the classic example that the heavens are still open and that God does indeed speak to men on earth. The Book of Mormon also reveals the role and ministry of angels in detail not found in the Bible (see Moroni 7:29–32).
Satan’s Identity and Methods. The knowledge of Satan and his influence is virtually absent from the Old Testament. One scholar wrote, “Nowhere in the [Old Testament] does Satan appear as a distinctive demonic figure, opposed to God and responsible for all evil.”8 Another acknowledged, “Admittedly we have not yet the fully developed doctrine” concerning Satan.9 Lehi learned from the brass plates, however, that Satan was originally an angel of God who fell from heaven by seeking “that which was evil before God” (2 Nephi 2:17). From the Book of Mormon we learn various ways he seeks to gain power over individuals, such as teaching men not to pray, stirring “them up to anger against that which is good,” lulling “them away into carnal security,” and revealing his secret plans to lead them down to destruction (see 2 Nephi 32:8; 28:20–21; Helaman 6:26).10 Fortunately, the Book of Mormon also reveals that when people are righteous, Satan has no power (see 1 Nephi 22:26).11
We have just scratched the surface. The number of plain and precious truths restored is voluminous. After an intense study of all the doctrines the Book of Mormon reveals which are not found in the Bible, Elder B. H. Roberts concluded: “Beyond controversy neither the native intelligence nor learning of Joseph Smith can possibly be regarded as equal to such a performance as bringing forth the knowledge which the Book of Mormon imparts upon these profound subjects; nor can the intelligence or learning of those who assisted him in translating the book be regarded as sufficient for such a task. Nor was the intelligence and learning of any one to whom the origin of the book has ever been ascribed equal to such an achievement. Indeed the book sounds depths on these subjects not only beyond the intelligence and learning of this small group of men referred to, but beyond the intelligence and learning of the age itself in which it came forth.”12
The more carefully one studies the doctrines and teachings of the Book of Mormon, the more powerful the evidence becomes that Joseph Smith was not reflecting the learning of his time or his own personal study. He was the instrument God used to reveal many lost truths and once again “make plain the old paths” that, if followed, will lead one to exaltation and eternal life.
Most Ensign articles can be used for family home evening discussions, personal reflection, or teaching the gospel in a variety of settings.
1. Make a copy for each family member of a simple recipe for a treat that everyone enjoys. Then make a second copy of the recipe with key ingredients and cooking processes missing. Discuss the differences in the recipes and the problems that arise when essential information is missing. Compare this to what the author shows happened to the scriptures when plain and precious truths were removed.
2. Compare Matthew 18:11 in the New Testament with Matthew 18:11 in footnote 11c. Discuss or contemplate the additional truth and understanding that can come to the scriptures through revelation to a prophet.
[illustration] Illustration by Tom Lovell
[illustration] Prophet of the Lord, by David Lindsley
[illustration] Adam and Eve, by Douglas M. Fryer
[illustration] Illustration by Walter Rane, courtesy of the Museum of Church History and Art
[illustration] Joseph Smith Ordaining Parley P. Pratt as an Apostle, by Walter Rane
[illustration] Joseph Smith Translating, by Dale Kilbourn
2. Examples of this principle are manifold; for instance, see Mosiah 2:21; Alma 29:4–5; 41:3, 5; 42:27; Helaman 3:28–29; 7:5; 12:3–6; 14:30–31.
3. “Free Agency and Freedom,” in The Book of Mormon: Second Nephi, The Doctrinal Structure, ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (1989), 1.
6. See 2 Nephi 9:23; 31:4–11; Mosiah 18:8–10; 25:17–18, 22; Alma 5:62; Alma 9:27.
7. See, for example, 1 Nephi 4:6; 15:8–11; Alma 58:10–11; Moroni 10:4–5.
8. Theodor H. Gaster, in The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible: An Illustrated Encyclopedia, ed. George A. Buttrick (1962), 4:224.
10. See also 2 Nephi 9:28; 15:20; Helaman 16:22; 3 Nephi 6:15–16; 11:29.
11. See also 1 Nephi 15:23–24; 2 Nephi 1:13, 23; Alma 13:28; and Helaman 3:29–30.
One might question the history, but one cannot question the EXISTANCE of Jericho at that period of history. This is thousands of years OLDER than the bom period in the New World. Where is the archaeological evidence of much younger bom cities? By all factors of common sense and science there should be an overwhelming amount of artifacts involving an advanced metallurgical society with horses, old world crops (used to the exclusion of existing new world crops), silk, chariots, etc.
On the other hand it was thrilling to me to visit Nazareth, Galilee, the Judean wilderness, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and other New Testament places whose accounts in the narrative more closely coincide with the physical evidence.
More recent evidence support the biblical story - NO EVIDENCE of bom artifacts for the same time frame - starting to see a pattern here?
Ultimately for myself I think it’s a mistkae for me to place my faith in such a way that it depends on physical evidence. To me faith is not about the physical world, and the treasure that I build up through my faith is not something that is part of the physical world.
Nice, except when that 'faith' is place upon a book and an author that has been shown to be false. How much 'faith' does it take to believe that middle earth is a real place, with hobbits, dwarfs, elves, etc? Since such a place never existed - is that 'faith' valid? I would certainly say NO - because it is based upon fiction - not fact.
The bom and Smith staked their credability that the bom is an ACTUAL record of the history of the New World. The almost creedal statement of mormons is that the bom is true and smith is a prophet - yet the first part of the equation has been shown to be false with no hope of it ever being shown to be 'true'. Is such 'faith' valid or is it the same as 'faith' in middle earth? If 'faith' is being placed in a false item, how valid is that 'treasure' being 'built up' by that same baseless faith? Is that the kind of faith you are looking to?
ping to 381
I think folks explain it (or choose not to) in the same way folks who used to think the world was created 4000 years ago reconcile that with the theories of modern science.
I look on the evidence of the existemce of New Testament cities in the same way I view the evidence of the existence of Doctrine and Covenants cities. Both accounts are more fully within eras of better written records keeping.
Not to say there aren’t MAJOR differences. I’m not trying to say I think the two lineages of evidence are exactly alike. And I do agree that the Mormon side has less verifiable data. I do see your point, up to a point.
Are you sure you know what you are talking about? D&C cities?!?
Both accounts are more fully within eras of better written records keeping.
Fine, where have extant copies of the golden plates been discovered? Oh, there are none. Well howabout the mayan and other native writings of the period, they should say something. . . . . . except there is absolutely no reference to anything the even remotely resembles the Nephites or Lamanites.
I’m not trying to say I think the two lineages of evidence are exactly alike.
Bible - extant scriptures as well as writings from surrounding nations referencing history and events bom - uh nothing at all found, no extant gold plates, no writings from concurrent native mentioning anything about them.
And I do agree that the Mormon side has less verifiable data. I do see your point, up to a point.
Lets try NO verifiable data - first you have to HAVE something in order to EVALUATE IT - unless you want to evaluate the only two extant writings in existance that smith translated for us - the kinderhook plates and the Book of Breathings (created the book of abraham - part of mormon scripture).
“the Mormon side has less verifiable data.”
Yea! Zero!
“I think folks explain it (or choose not to) in the same way folks who used to think the world was created 4000 years ago reconcile that with the theories of modern science.”
I may be wrong, but that seems to mean you don’t care
that there is zero evidence for mormonism’s claims.
This supports what I’ve posted here about mormonism
many times. Mormonism isn’t about facts. It is entirely
about feelings. Once you move from the ground of objective
truth onto subjective truth, you can believe all mormonism
has to offer.
Well, it’s America. You have the right to stake your
eternal life on a piece of chewing gum, if you wish.
... at least you would have some factual data about
the piece of gum...
best,
ampu
Fact are - as a professional geologist - there is far more actual evidence regarding aspect of the earth's age - 7000 (please cite YE correctly) year or 4 billion years - than there is for any event listed in the bom. I can take you through the events in Jerusalem when Lehi, et al. alledgedly started this 'migration' and show that even those details are false - based upon writings of that time - as well as show that the characters could not have existed as described.
... at least you would have some factual data about the piece of gum...
Or at least you'd want to know whether or not that item which is 'called' gum really is gum to begin with.
Yes, I agree with you about facts and feelings.
Once something is around long enough, it does tend to develop the aura of fact, even those things that started out as feelings.
and this gave rise to the saying:
Stick of Gum - More evidence than mormonism!
“Once something is around long enough, it does tend to develop the aura of fact, even those things that started out as feelings.”
Yes, but that doesn’t mean it is a fact. Your eternity
depends on a religion for which there are no facts,
which denies the God of the Bible and distorts the
Gospel of Grace.
Be like the Bereans, who searched the scriptures to
see if the things the Apostle Paul taught were actually
true. They looked for REAL FACTS - not feelings. For this,
the Apostle Paul commended them.
Ever wonder why your church teaches the opposite of
what Paul commended?
ampu
First, there is no "proof" that anything in the Holy Bible actually reveals the mind, will, and authority of God. If so, please, show me the "proof." And Elsie, do not try to quote scripture to me, trying to PROVE me wrong...you would be wasting your time.
Second,it does not take "proof" to know if something is true. The path to Truth is Faith. It takes real Faith to know if ANYTHING is true. But heck, we cannot even agree on what Faith is.
For all you Bible Thumpers who, for some unknown reason, believe that the pages and words in a book give you God's authority, which is a crock of fart beans, you cannot provide any more proof that your views and perspective on things are anymore the truth than ours.
Which is why my good Brother Restornu will fail yet again to persuade anyone here of his way of thinking...or to even have an honest discussion about it. There is no faith here being exercised, not even a "particle." Even a particle would require a "belief" first. There is not the slightest caliber of belief in these forums. Nobody here is willing to "give place for a portion of my words" when there is no "particle" of belief.
Restornu, you know I love you as a Brother in the faith, so I know you will not take this wrong. Please stop casting your "pearls before swine." These people here do not even come close to qualifying in reading the great and precious truths as revealed to a prophet from God. They mock God and His revelations. They laugh and scoff at sacred things. Why on earth would you give them your time? Even our missionaries pay no mind to such people.
All I ever want to do when I give place for this forum is to duke these suckers in the nose. So, I rarely participate. They stir up the wrong feelings and at times, I succumb to my anger. Heck, these people are not even worthy of my anger,let alone any rational approach to make discussion.
In closing Restornu, as long as these people want proof, they have no faith in God. Without the "particle," they cannot "give place..." I would move on...
LOL! Resty you are so funny! I'm SO going to save this comment. I give you five hours before you call someone a kook or post a "windbag warning" graphic!
Honestly, how do you keep a straight face? Love you sweetheart :-)
If it were true, you wouldn't care.
YOU mean your "precious religion". THere's a great line from a current Christian contemporary song that goes like this:
"All religion ever made of me was a sinner with a rock tied to my feet"
Saundra, Resty, you CAN be set free. I want that for you both.
I'm sure the mod noticed that with one hand and watched TV with the other. Metaphorically speaking :-)
Resty, this may be THE MOST ASTOUNDINGLY IGNORANT statement I have ever heard you make, girl, and I've been around for a little while now.
Are you actually going to try to claim that until the 1800's, we were unaware of the following concerning the OT?:
Geography. We had no idea whre the OT mountains, rivers, seas, cities, deserts, lakes, wells, etc were located (just like the BOM?)
Culture: The people groups mentioned in the OT were unknown. No history of them, no evidence they ever lived, no artifacts, coins, ruins, graves, etc. (kinda like the BOM people)
Written records: No non-scriptural supporting documents were ever found that indicated that any people or events from OT days existed? Their temples, wells, weapons, taxation, battles, mass graves? (Just like the BOM?)
You have really put your foot in it this time.
Since you chose to take the context of the discussion down some rabbit holes, let's try and correct some misconceptions you put forth.
First, the discussion was revolving around the supposed "truths" found in the BoM vs. the NT & OT. Resty made a claim and I encouraged her to support that claim which she cannot and will not do.
Second, you can say that all it takes is "faith" to know if "ANYTHING" is "true" or not. That's a very simplistic, narrow and naive approach. If I can see and hold something, that's not faith, that's physical fact. The Bible supports itself with archaeological, textual and DNA evidence. There is tangible proof to support my claims. That is “true”. Do I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, yes, but it's also grounded in the fact that there is precedent for having that "faith". It’s not “blind” faith.
Third, please show where I claimed "God's authority" in any of my posts. I used to years ago. But no longer. You’ll see in a minute what I’m referring to.
Fourth, Restornu will make claims and not offer any substantiation for those claims. Asking her to do so is quite reasonable, it's not a "crock of fart beans". If you make a claim, you should be able to support it.
”There is no faith here being exercised, not even a "particle." Even a particle would require a "belief" first. There is not the slightest caliber of belief in these forums. Nobody here is willing to "give place for a portion of my words" when there is no "particle" of belief.”
I would ask you to support that claim, but your comment is founded in a basic misconception. You’re making this statement from a mormon perspective. That in order to qualify to have “a particle of faith” as you define it, that I must “believe” as you.
"These people here do not even come close to qualifying in reading the great and precious truths as revealed to a prophet from God."
You assume much. I'm an apostate in transition out of mormonism. Married to a devout, temple attending mormon for over 20 years. I was ordained to the Melchizidek PH and held a temple recommend for years. I do know a thing or two about what I'm talking about.
Because I found out about men becoming gods in mormonism I began to question the doctrine of mormonism. The more I investigated, the more I realized what a detestable set of events were put into motion by JS and his successors. That does NOT mean that I hold mormons in contempt. On the contrary, I hold the ISM and all of his subsequent “revelations” that was/were created by a known con-man in contempt.
You can choose to ignore the information posted, that's well within your rights. But to cast aspersions at the "swine" and to indicate that you're not capable of controlling your emotions to the point of threatening "these people", while at the same time claiming a position of moral superiority, indicates to me a lack of cognitive dissonance. An inability to defend one's position.
Lastly, I've tried to be very reasonable in my discussions with Resty and the many other mormons who post on these threads. They will get called out when they throw the mud (personal attacks) for no valid reason other than their inability to respond in a rational and adult manner.
If you're so concerned about "rational approaches to discussion", you might try to begin the discussion with me in a rational manner as opposed to casting such a wide net as you did.
Then, why base your faith on a "physically unproven" BOM instead of the "physical" Bible for which there IS MUCH physical proof?
“Saundra, Resty, you CAN be set free. I want that for you both.”
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed - that would be my Savior, Jesus Christ. I thank my Heavenly Father for His Plan of Salvation and the Holy Ghost seals this in my heart.
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