Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54
Gog appears to be quite the community organizer.
You have a vary narrow view of salvation history and ignore the OT promises of Israel as a nation. Many of the promises concerning the land, the government, etc. have never been fulfilled in Jewish history as of yet. Since God gave the promises, and he cannot lie, and the promises have yet to be fulfilled ... they are future.
There are believing Jews and believing Gentiles. They are all one in Christ Jesus.
No issues with that statement ... there ARE beliving Jews and Gentiles ... the first Christians were believing Jews, but the entire nation of Isreal was not saved then.
The victory has been won. We're now experiencing its gracious aftermath.
True enough ... but the endgame has yet to happen.
Abrahamic covenant promised land boundaries that have never been possessed by the nation of Israel. There is the kingdom in Daniel that has not come yet. There are the promises of the Davidic kingdom rulership over that kingdom.
The promise was that a Savior would come and give eternal life by grace through faith in that Savior to all who love His appearing.
Fine, that promise was fulfilled, we are not talking about that promise. We were talking about the nation of Israel.
bflr
Point taken, but it is what DeMar believes which my comments relate to.
R.C. Sproul ...
He is one I respect alot and have read some of his stuff. He has a great book on Scripture.
If we want to go down this road, let's take a look at extreme hyper-dispensationalists (John Hagee comes to mind with his denial of the need for Jews to have saving faith in Christ) and use them to paint the entire dispensational movement
Fair enough ... I knew there must have been some reason I never read anything from Hagee.
That is hardly an in-depth study of Dispensationalism, but I will look at it later today.
And to balance the preterist view of this website ... an opposing scholarly treatment would be found in the articles at this site ...
You are correct ... it is not.
None of us really knows.
But both of our sides are trying to come to a solid understanding so we can know ... by exegesis of the relevant Biblical passages. That is what seems to be missing from most discussions of this topic on FR.
But I find more strength and sense of purpose in believing Christ reigns today over the earth as well as heaven.
Wonderful ... and you won't be penalized for your view when you are raptured with the rest of us :-)
“1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
We are even told when this will happen.
From John 6
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up AT THE LAST DAY.
40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
Jesus answered. 44”No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
From John 11
23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY.”
Whether or not you want to refer to the rapture, I suspect we all believe, based on 1 Thessalonians, that Jesus Christ is returning for his saints, first for those who have already died, and then immediately after those still living on earth will be taken up to meet Him. Where we part company is that those who tend to refer to “THE RAPTURE”, tend also to be subscribing to a rather convoluted eschatology. The passages above from the Gospel of John tell us when Christ will return - and its not the second last day, or 7 years before the last day - it’s THE LAST DAY. That is the framework into which all other eschatology has to fit.
What agenda is that and what is the ultimate goal of that agenda? You are the first person who has said dispensationalism is linked to a political agenda. Now you have my interest.
None of the passages you cite have anything to do with the return of Christ. They are all resurrection passages. When will Christ raise this person or that person ... on the last day. My question would be "the last day of what?" ... where will we find information on what the last day is? To take this as a "framework into which all other eschatology has to fit" will produce some very "interesting" views.
Would you not agree that any framework for an eschatology should explain ALL the Biblical data ... not filter that data through a selected passage?
You don’t know anything about me. Meanwhile, several others on here have posted scripture that is very plain (not hard to understand like some scriptures are). Unbelievable. Also, “fundie?” What the heck is that? Oh, you mean people who actually believe the Bible says what it says? Yep, that’s me...
Way to go, brother. I, for one, am very happy that our salvation is not based on our eschatological beliefs.
All I know is there is going to be a rapture. I don’t focus on any of the other stuff. It takes too much time away from doing God’s work.
I like that!
We don't disagree. However, what I've found is a sound understanding of the end times leads to a better understanding of Scripture.
He is already reigning as king over the kingdom of God/heaven. This current reign is the millennial time frame in Rev. 20, and covers the time between his first and second appearings -- the "end days."
I think you are wrong for several reasons, but lets start with one. When was Satan bound?
Likewise, when Christ speaks about the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:25-29 He is clearly referencing Himself and the work He accomplished by His death and resurrection.
"But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28
Frankly, to insist Satan is still licentiously running amok in the world, having not been affected by the Crucifixion, is to further deteriorate Christian particularism. Satan was most definitely bound by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. To deny that seems to be a terrible oversight.
From the first of the following two links...
John 12:31, predicting His death, Jesus says this: "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." -- John 12:31 Please notice that, and notice the parallel to Revelation 20:1-3. Jesus says "now the prince of this world will be driven out." Who is the prince of world? Satan. Where is he being driven from? It has to be this world. In Revelation 20 the angel comes down out of heaven to seize Satan, so in Revelation 20 it appears that Satan is on the earth when he is bound. In John 12:31 Satan is driven out of this world. And, according to John 12:31, when is Satan to be driven out (bound?)? At the time of the crucifixion. "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." -- Colossians 2:15
Here are two good defenses of the fact...
And...
IMO dispensationalists give up the battle before it's begun. And that benefits whom?
Christ appeared and completed the work God gave Him. Satan has no power over Christ's flock. He still beguiles them but He cannot have them. He is bound by the fact of Christ's atonement and resurrection. And just because RCs understand this is no reason to dismiss this belief. The Reformers didn't discard the correct understanding of the Trinity either just because Rome still held to that truth.
Gotta go. Blessings. 8~)
I have to run, but that is clearly not true. Perhaps you've not heard this perspective, but it's a familiar one. I didn't make it up. I only swipe positions that have evidence behind them. 8~)
I'll get back to you soon. Thanks for the comments.
Interesting. Perhaps it’s worth checking out . . . given that y’all are seemingly so much more INTO cultism sorts of things. Y’all are likely much more experts on such things than I am. Though I have read a lot of Walter Martin’s Kingdom of the Cults. However, my impression has been that if y’all don’t find someone in 98.99999998888887778889% agreement with y’all’s perspective, then the “cult” label is automatically thrown out most derisively. Very impressive, that.REPLACEMENTARIANISM/ PRETERISM/ A-MILLENIALISM/ POST-MILLENIALISM/ RUN-OF-THE-MIL-ISM . . . probably on Halloween.
WITH THE PROPHECIES AND ESCHATOLOGY INVOLVED. Y’all seem to have a huge kennel of straw dogs.
Have the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al rabid cliques undergone mind reading traning from some race of ET’s?
Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Probably better to abide by the Scripture, for sure.
However, some of us stoop to responding to the silly REPLACEMENTARIANS, PRETERISTS ET AL
for the recreational sport of it.
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