On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)

580

Well, subtle as serpents and gentle as doves seems to come out to subtle as a brick and gentle as a 4 lb hammer, is all I’m saying.

Okay, not ALL ...

But the reason I asked was the your response seemed to be that if God is gonna save ‘em, rough language can’t stop Him.

But Paul was talking all about the care he took. It certainly sounds like Paul thought that a careful approach to evangelism was worth his labors. And it sounds like you’re saying the chips will fall where god scatters them so it doesn’t matter if one uses rhetoric that turns people away. Do you think Paul would agree with that?

If you do, then was he wasting his time being all things to all people or what?

Do you acknowledge that a Mormon can be as well informed about Mormonism as you are and honest about his or her beliefs, and yet still disagree with you?

Knowledge doesn't always = discernment

For example, plenty of husbands may trump their wives in the former category -- and be totally blown away by their wives in the latter category...and, of course, the reverse is often true among other couples.

Thank you for reading it. lol. Never sure how often that happens on here.

Who is Paul? Who is ApoLlos ? One soes , thew other waters ..but it is God that gives the increase..

Have you read “Sinners in the hand of an angry God”?

It is. you offer to shake hands, if they refuse then they are not an angel. D&C 129.

I thought I remembered that ,,LOL

CC accused Mormons of lying about their beliefs out of embarrassment. Lying is a far more serious moral failing than ignorance, in my opinion. Regarding statements of past church leaders, I would point out that Mormons might not draw the same lessons from such statements that you insist they must. Nor are they obligated to do so.

Absolute Mormon statement #1 (I'd quote you a dozen Lds leaders stating this, Elsie style, but perhaps you'll take me at my word on this): General authority after general authority has promised Mormons that God will not allow the "Living Prophet" (or anything else) to lead the Lds church astray.

Absolute Mormon statement #2: (Same thing, I could come up w/multiple quotations if you like) Lds stating how "great" it is for them to be a church (or the only) church to have an ongoing Living Prophet (a living scripture factory, so to speak)

Now, tell us Logophile. Why would #1 be true above -- especially if it was stated just before Brigham Young took over -- if the Mormon church bought in to some teachings that actually did lead them astray?...i.e. B. Young teaching about Adam is God for over 25 years...or blood atonement...or racist beliefs that hung on for over 125 years?

And, as for #2, if contemporary Mormons can just play "armchair QB" -- and whenever they see a past heresy taught by Mormon leaders and just say,
"Well, that wasn't 'canon'" --
or, "Well, prophets aren't prophets when they're speaking as men" --
or, "Well, prophets are fallible, too"...
...then, pray tell, Logo, what good is it to have not a trustworthy "Living Prophet" on all tabernacle matters -- but a weasly "Living Opinionator"???...who, if you just wait enough generations, you'll hear ensuing Mormons castigate the guy and often throw him under the bus, labeling the man as a mere "fallible" creature who didn't know how to distinguish the tabernacle from his kitchen table...who couldn't recognize the distinct features of Adam from God!!!!

What’s upsetting to me about Mormonism is that they portray themselves as the only “true” Christians/church and sneer at those who are not in the Mormon church .... we’re called ‘gentiles’ as though they some how have Hebrew blood in them.

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they even call Jews ‘gentiles’. That is arrogance.

There was an old LDS teaching, that has been downplayed the last couple of decades, but many of the older members still believe it (and I was told it when I joined in the late 1980’s) that when a person is baptized LDS, they receive a ‘spiritual blood transfusion’ that makes them a member of one of the Tribes of Israel, that their blood actually changes.

You are performing an time honored function in steering individuals away from the path of the evil one.

That there would be those seeking to dissuade you from such an effort is of little surprise. Ironically it is often those performing the most service to the evil are the ones who realize it the least.

And sometime they aren't...

Regardless the tools are the same, and getting personal and off topic in a number of areas is just part of their bag of deceitful tricks.

I am blessed and grateful that God gave me the option. And I LOVE my new teeth.

I will ping you. BTW, it is Sister, but don’t worry it happens a lot. ;)

Oh, and that childhood friend who took me to church? He is is my husband of 14 years and fellow freeper.

AFA, street preachers, have you ever heard of Israel Houghton? He is a worship leader/Christian artist. He tells a story about how, his mother when she was pregnant with him, was walking down the street, broken and abused, and heard this street preacher yelling. She stopped, talked to him and gave her life to Christ, kneeling on the sidewalk about ready to give birth.

You are right, you never know who is listening or who will be touched.

In any case, your assertion that Scripture is “clear” to those who study and pray, is directly at odds with your statement that “NO ONE can infallibly interpret scripture.”

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I asserted the FIRST part of taht statement, but I NEVER, nor would I ever state: “NO ONE can infallibly interpret scripture.”. So you are apparently confused r9.

CC accused Mormons of lying about their beliefs out of embarrassment. Lying is a far more serious moral failing than ignorance, in my opinion. Regarding statements of past church leaders, I would point out that Mormons might not draw the same lessons from such statements that you insist they must. Nor are they obligated to do so.

Hmmmm, why then is the phrase "Lying for the Lord" so tightly linked to mormons. Why do your apostles teach members not to answer the question asked, but what mormons want to answer.

Let’s be precise about what is meant by lying. A lie is an untruth told deliberately with the intent to deceive

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well, that is ONE definition. But lying can also be lying by omission or only telling half truths, that is the most common form of LDS ‘lying for the Lord’.

http://mrm.org/lying-for-the-lord

http://20truths.info/mormon/lying.html

http://mormonthink.com/lying.htm

http://www.exmormon.org/lying.htm

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

I love street preachers. There was a guy in our church, this was the 60s, who went down town every Friday night, stood in the back of his pick up and preached. A fellow showed up every time and hassled him. This fellow said he was an atheist. Our church friend yield to his irritation jumped off his truck went face to face with this fellow and asked "what can I do to prove there is a God", the fellow laughed and said "pray for something". So this street preacher got down on his knees and asked God to strike the fellow blind. The fellow started screaming, "how dare you wish me blind", our church guy said "why are you worried, you say there is no God". The fellow broke down and was Saved that night. He and his family became regular attenders at our church, where still there when I went off to college.

You just never know who and how a person will be reached.

I am not mad or angry or hateful at Mormons in the least. I love Mormons. I do hate the fact that their leadership lies to them. Your comment was beyond personal, completely uncalled for, and with no basis in reality. My perspective is just fine. If I hated them I wouldn’t bother witnessing to them or telling them to get out of a burning building.

And yet we have your intense, laser-like focus on Mormons. and your insistence that others share your position. To the disinterested observer it seems strange and obsessive. Just saying....

And why would I ‘cultivate a different crop’??!?!

Maybe because it's better to focus on something fresh and healthy, rather than just refighting those old battles from your past, time and time again. As it is, you seem to be stuck in a very narrow trench. Again, just an observation.

You have spent several posts insulting me, I am beginning to think perhaps YOUR perspective is skewed.

Perhaps you should look back at what you said that caused me to take issue with your comments to me.

A lie is an untruth told deliberately with the intent to deceive

And that would be "lying for the lord", a mormon thing.

The prophet does not have the final word; God does. As a Latter-day Saint, I am not obligated to agree with or defend everything that the leaders of the church have ever said.

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Contrast this statement by a Mormon with thes ones by LDS leaders...thank you for proving our point, Logo.

“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:95)

“Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators’ of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostasy. One cannot speak evil of the lord’s anointed... and retain the holy spirit in his heart. This sort of game is Satan’s favorite pastime, and he has practiced it to believing souls since Adam. He wins a great victory when he can get members of the church to speak against their leaders and to do their own thinking.”

“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God’s Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.”1

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212-213.)

In LDS scripture: http://scriptures.lds.org/od/1

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, Excerpt regarding Manifesto/between Official Declarations #1 and #2)

“Give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you...his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. (D&C 21:4-5)

Other:

The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are “found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a bade in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray....” ( Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 9:289)

“...learn to do as you are told. ...if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong.” (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 6:32)

“If you do things according to counsel and they are wrong, the consequences will fall on the heads of those who counseled you, so don’t be troubled.” (William Clayton’s Journal, p. 334)

“God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363/History of the Church, 6:319-20)

“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:95)

“Recently, at the Church-wide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: “When the Prophet speaks,....the debate is over.” (Ensign, November 1978, p. 108). I was impressed by that simple statement, which carries such deep spiritual meaning for all of us. Wherever I go, my message to the people is: follow the prophet.

“Why else has the Lord placed prophets on the earth through the dispensations of time? In his infinite wisdom, and as part of the plan of life and salvation for his children, God has given us the blueprint to follow, the leadership to direct us and keep us on course, and the Church organization to help us lay the foundation and develop the skills, or make the preparation necessary, to lead us back to our eternal home. It is foolish to suppose that men can be left to their own devices and accomplish what God intended for them....

“It is difficult to understand why there are many people who fight against the counsel of the prophet and FOR the preservation of the very things that will bring them misery and death.... Latter-day Saints should be able to accept the words of the prophets without having to wait for science to prove the validity of their words. We are most fortunate to have a living prophet at the head of the Church to guide us, and all who heed his counsel will be partakers of the promised blessings which will not be enjoyed by those who fail to accept his messages....We cannot serve God and mammon. Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over.” (The Debate is Over, President N. Eldon Tanner, Ensign, August 1979, p. 3)

Ezra Taft Benson’s famous “Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet:”

http://www.lds-mormon.com/fourteen.shtml

The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past...we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of god, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112)

I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home.... When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said, ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)

“The older I get and the closer the contact I have with the President of the church, the more I realize that the greatest of all scriptures which we have in the world today is current scripture. What the mouthpiece of god says to His children is scripture. It is intended for all the children of god upon the earth. It is His word and His will and His law made manifest through His ordained and anointed servant to the world. What the President says is scripture, and I love it more than all other. It applies to me today specifically, and to you all.” (President Henry D. Moyle, “Beware of Temptation,” as quoted in Teachings of the Living Prophets, Religion 333 Student Manual, p. 19)

The Latter-day Saints do not do things because they happen to be printed in a book. They do not do things because God told the Jews to do them; nor do they do or leave undone anything because of instructions that Christ gave to the Nephites. Whatever is done by this Church is because God, speaking from heaven in our day, has commanded this Church to do it. No book presides over this Church, and no book lies at its foundation. You cannot pile up books enough to take the place of god’s priesthood, inspired by the power of the Holy Ghost. (President Ezra Taft Benson, in Conference Report, Oct. 1916, pp. 55)

“Occasionally misinformed members of the Church will maintain that, although they accept the standard works as divinely inspired, they are reluctant to give equal credence to pronouncements of the living prophet. Such individuals are pursuing an inconsistent course and “err, not knowing the scriptures” (Matthew 22:29), for the scriptures themselves plainly testify of the fact that we must give heed to the living prophets (see D&C 1:14, 38; 21:1, 4-5). (Teachings of the Living Prophets: Religion 333 Student Manual, p. 20)

“Though the prophet may step out of his official role in dealing with the daily affairs of life, he can never divest himself of the spirit and influence which belong to the sacred office which the Lord has placed upon him. The faith and readiness to do the work of the Lord which fitten him for his high office, shape his life in harmony with the eternal principles and purposes of the gospel. Though often he lives under inspired guidance, which makes him great among men, and therefore, his unofficial expressions carry greater weight than the opinions of other men of equal or greater gifts and experience but without the power of the prophetic office. It would be wisdom on all occasions and with respect to all subjects in any field of human activity, to hearken to the prophet’s voice. There is safety and ultimate happiness in following the counsel that may be received from the prophet.” (Apostle John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 237)

“I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.

“An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be....

“I testify that if we shall look to the First presidency and follow their counsel and direction, no power on earth can stay or change our course as a church, and as individuals we shall gain peace in this life and be inheritors of eternal glory in the world to come.” (President Joseph Field Smith, Conference Report, April 1972, p. 99 /Ensign, July 1972, p. 88)

“These apostles and prophets, the revelators of God, were to act as a protection for the people against false prophets and false teachings. Therefore, if somebody secretly comes to you claiming to have had a secret revelation and trying to lead you astray, all you have to do is remember that this person is not an apostle. If you want to know what the word of God is, go to the Council of the Twelve or the First Presidency. They are the foundation of the Church; they will keep you on the right track so that you will not need to worry.” (Elder Mark E. Peterson, Speeches of the Year, 1979, p. 184, quoted in Teachings of the Living Prophets, Religion 333 Student Manual, p. 30)

“We must not only set the Church and its program as the rule by which we judge everything else, we must also remember that the path of safety lies well within the guidelines and standards set forth by the prophets. (Teachings of the Living Prophets, Religion 333 Student Manual, p. 41)

“A part of the propaganda is that there is no warrant for official interpretation of the doctrines and standards of the Church, that everyone may read and interpret for himself, and adopt only so much of the doctrine as he chooses, and that he may classify the revelations as essential or non-essential. These propagandists are either ignorant of or ignore the Lord’s declaration that ‘no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.’ (2 Peter 1:20). They disparage orthodoxy as such and pride themselves on liberal thinking. Many of them maintain their loyalty to the Church, and some may honestly believe they are doing the Church a favor and a service in advocating their so-called broad-minded concepts.

“Unfortunately, some people within the Church subscribing to these views do not realize that they are falling into a trap themselves. They are giving aid and comfort to the foe; they are undermining their own testimonies and those of others. I warn the Church against them, and I warn them against themselves; and I plead with them to desist, to abandon their agnostic discussions, and to join with the faithful in promoting the cause which in their hearts they once loved, and I think they still love.” (President Stephen L. Richards, in Conference Report, Oct. 1951, pp. 116-17)

“They are just men, you might argue. No, they are not just men. They are chosen above all other men, and they are the servants of the Lord....” (Apostle Boyd K. Packer, Obedience, BYU Speeches of the Year, pp. 6-7)

Some Latter-day Saints mistakenly think they can sustain the prophet while refusing to sustain a local ecclesiastical leader. Elder Boyd K. Packer states unequivocally that an individual who does not sustain his local leaders will not sustain the President of the Church:

“A man who says he will sustain the President of the Church or the General Authorities, but cannot sustain his own bishop is deceiving himself. The man who will not sustain the bishop of his ward and the president of his stake will not sustain the President of the Church.” (Follow the Brethren, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, pp. 4-5)

The Consequences of Following or Rejecting Prophets

Both in ancient and in modern times, the Lord has spoken to mankind through prophets, but most have not listened to the inspired messages. Instead they have followed the alluring voices of the world. Of what value is following prophets? Are the blessings we will obtain worth the sacrifices? What will happen to those who reject the counsel of prophets? How serious is it to neglect this counsel? Ponder these questions while you read this chapter. Remember that we all have free agency—we can accept or reject what prophets say—but we cannot determine the consequences of our choices. Those consequences have been made very clear. If we follow the direction of prophets, we will find happiness and eventually obtain our exaltation. If we reject the counsel of prophets, we will find unhappiness and lose the blessings of eternal life. (Teachings of the Living Prophets, p. 54)

“We cannot oppose the Lord’s prophets without bringing upon ourselves the Lord’s displeasure. Rejecting the prophets causes the Lord to withdraw his Spirit. When that takes place, the spirit of the adversary has greater influence over us, as the following statements attest:

“When you hear a man talk against the authorities of this Church and kingdom, you may know he is sliding down hill. He does not know what spirit influences him; he is ignorant that he is in the dark; and, unless he retraces his steps quickly, he will go overboard. You may set that down as a fact all the time. Why? Because, if this is the Church and kingdom of God, and the President is the elect of god, and his council and the Twelve and others are the elect of god, and you seek to injure them, you run a great risk, and will be found fighting against God; for Jesus says, ‘He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me; and he that rejecteth you rejecteth me, and he that rejecteth me rejecteth him that sent me.’” (John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 7:325)

Those who speak evil of the Lord’s anointed are in great jeopardy because they are sowing in themselves seeds of spiritual death. President Harold B. Lee gave the following testimony and warning:

“Mark well those who speak evil of the Lord’s anointed for they speak from impure hearts. Only the ‘pure in heart’ see the “God” or the divine in man and accept our leaders and accept them as prophets of the Living God....

“I want to bear you my testimony that the experience I have had has taught me that those who criticize the leaders of this Church are showing signs of a spiritual sickness which, unless curbed, will bring about eventually spiritual death. I want to bear my testimony as well that those who in public seek by their criticism, to belittle our leaders or bring them into disrepute, will bring upon themselves more hurt than upon those whom they seek thus to malign. I have watched over the years, and I have read of the history of many of those who fell away from this Church, and I want to bear testimony that no apostate who ever left this Church ever prospered as an influence in his community thereafter.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1947, p. 67, as quoted in Teachings of the Living Prophets, Religion 333 Student Manual, p. 56)

“One who rationalizes that he or she has a testimony of Jesus Christ but cannot accept direction and counsel from the leadership of His church is in a fundamentally unsound position and is in jeopardy of losing exaltation.” (Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of the Living Prophets, Religion 333, Student Manual, p. 56)

“I clearly saw and understood, by the spirit of revelation manifested to me, that if I was to harbor a thought in my heart that Joseph could be wrong in anything, I would begin to lost confidence in him, from one degree to another, until at last I would have the same lack of confidence in his being the mouthpiece for the Almighty....

“I repented of my unbelief, and that too, very suddenly; I repented about as quickly as I committed the error. It was not for me to question whether Joseph was dictated by the Lord at all times and under all circumstances....

“It was not my prerogative to call him in question with regard to any act of his life. He was God’s servant, and not mine. He did not belong to the people but to the Lord, and was doing the work of the Lord.’ (In Journal of Discourses, 4:197)” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1982, pp. 90-91; or Ensign, May 1982, p. 64)

On one occasion that Prophet Joseph Smith warned the Saints that criticism would eventually lead to apostasy.

“There is the man who, to satisfy his own egotism, took a stand against the authorities of the Church. He followed the usual pattern, not apostasy at first, only superiority of knowledge and mild criticism. He loved the brethren, he said, but they failed to see and interpret as he would like. He would still love the Church, he maintained, but his criticism grew and developed into ever-widening circles. He was right, he assured himself; he could not yield in good conscience; he had his pride. His children did not accept his philosophy wholly, but they married out of the Church, and he lost them. He later realized his folly and returned to humbleness, but so very late. He had lost his children. ‘It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.’” (President Spencer W. Kimball, in Conference Report, Apr. 1955, pp. 94-95)

“...Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow the ones whom the Lord has placed to preside over his church. He knows whom he wants to preside over this church, and he will make no mistake. The Lord doesn’t do things by accident.....

“Let’s keep our eye on the president of the Church.” (President Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Oct. 1970, pp. 152-53)

Brigham Young said, “You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of god and sink yourselves to hell.” (President Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1963, p. 81)

“The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer. (President David O. McKay, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” in Speeches of the Year, 1980, p. 30)

General Conference:

“Let no arrogant, self-assured, self-styled intellectual discard the truths there taught and the testimonies there borne, nor argue with the messages and instructions there given” {in General Conference} (Spencer W. Kimball, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, May 1968, pp. 2-3)

“{General Conference} is one of the most important events of the present day. Many do not so regard it, even among the Latter-day Saints. But for those who appreciate its true significance, it is of transcending importance for in it PROPHETS OF GOD SPEAK, living prophets.

“When God gives a message to mankind, it is not something to be lightly cast aside. Whether He speaks personally, or through His prophets, He himself said, it is the same.

“And in this conference HIS PROPHETS SPEAK!” (Elder Mark E. Petersen, Why the Religious Life, pp. 203-4).

I posted all those quotes before I saw this post. GMTA