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To: daniel1212; don-o
This is not a comprehensive response, but just a couple of clarifying notes. I hope you will find this helpful.

(1) Authoritative Catholic documents (like the ones you cited) do not express respect for, or find salvific effectiveness, in Islam (a religious system), but express respect for Muslims (people). And which Muslims? Explicitly, respect for those who in all honesty worship "the God of Abraham," "the Creator of all things."

This is whom they claim to worship. Each person's genuineness in this, where they'll go with it, and their ultimate spiritual state (like yours and mine), is known only to God.

A Turkish girl I knew in DC used to come to meetings of a Catholic University group (it was Comunione e Liberazione), and felt drawn to C+L because she felt she revered Jesus and worshiped the same God that we do ---while simultaneously, she opined that God "did not have an 'only-begotten Son,'" which means she was objectively not a Christian, let alone a Catholic.

Confused? It's not you that's confused, it's this sweet Turkish girl who was confused (and ignorant); and yet one can love her and her reverence for the Creator, while at the same time firmly rejecting the errors of the Koran.

It is just this distinction that the Catechism would make: loving persons, affirming the truths that they do believe, "God of Abraham," "Creator of all things," (garbled and fragmentary though those truths may be), while inviting them to discover the real and living Jesus Christ, the savior of all mankind.

Check this out: see if Catholic Magisterial documents recommend respect for Muslims, which is one thing, or for Islam, which is quite another.

Sometimes its hard to keep this distinction sharp and clear, but that's what we're trying to find ways to do.

(2) About the use of the word "Church." It has different meanings in different contexts, just as "love" means something different Lennon-McCartney, in Ephesians, and in tennis.

The Catholic Church uses "Church" in its ecclesiological writings to mean "the baptized faithful and their bishop." Thus in Catholic parlance, "the local Church" = "the Diocese" and "particular Churches" = the autonomous, self-governing Churches, with their own bishops, which are in communion with the Bishop of Rome Eastern Catholic Churches (Link).

This is not meant to denigrate others of Christ's faithful as being "not Christians" --- far from it --- but to clarify that, in our context, they are not "gathered around their bishop" and thus are not members of the Church in the sense used in our ecclesial documents.

It certainly doesn't mean they're "not saved" or that they're "damned." In a rather famous case, a Boston priest who used to say "Non-Catholics are going to hell," was excommunicated for his "grave disobedience" and his refusal to accept the Church's own understanding of Catholic teachings.

Again, saying such-and-such a worship fellowship is "not a Church," this is not a denigration. It's a definition. There are other definitions for other senses of the word. For instance, we hold that eveyone who is baptized is a Catholic in this sense: that they have received the Sacrament of initiation into the Church (and oh man, can that lead to arguments!)

But I hope I can still lovingly regard all baptized people (including arguers) as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Anyway it's always helpful, in perplexity, to specify the context (Canon law? Ecclesial status of congregations? City zoning ordinance?) and to clarify what definition one is using in that context.

Thank you for your patience.

617 posted on 07/19/2010 4:08:45 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Goodness!

Be careful there . . .

or you’re likely to have to do penance or self-flagilations for

too much clarity, too.


628 posted on 07/19/2010 4:26:27 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Thank you for your charitable response, but i would respond that souls such as the Turkish girl are not really Muslim, as they do indeed have a different God/Jesus, (2Cor. 11:4) and do not adore the one true God with Christians. The girl herself would be in the class of those who ignorantly worship, but will see the light if they continue patiently in well doing according to the light they have, and are willing to reject their false religion. (Acts 10; Rm. 2)


684 posted on 07/19/2010 6:49:35 PM PDT by daniel1212
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