Posted on 08/20/2010 6:30:58 PM PDT by GunsAndBibles
“Then give to Caesar what is Caesar, but give to God what is God’s.” (Mat 22:15-21)
I'm surprised you guys have the guts to show up around here with the unabashed support of the Catholic Church for the illegal invasion.
Last Sunday, Assumption Day, there was a parade here complete with Mexican Flags and Aztec dancers headed to the local Catholic Church.
So enlighten me, why is the Catholic Church aiding and abetting lawbreakers?
Well said, CF!
I'm curious. What religious denomination has come out officially against helping illegal aliens or even against amnesty?
Might be true for some evnagelicals. But others are reaching out to the illegals, though not giving them sanctuary. Simply trying to reach them for Christ while the opportunity is there.
But endorsing lawbreakers is wrong - regardless of if it is by Catholics/Protestants/Evangelicals/or anyone.
None that I’m aware of. Civil law is a secular matter.
Let me rephrase your question:
What religious denomination officially aids illegal aliens?
See post 8
Post 11
“Post 11”
Post 5
Freegards
The answer to that has been provided many times before by many who are far more capable than I.
But the short answer is this:
Wealthy countries are obliged, to the degree that they are able to do so, welcome migrants from poorer areas. They are not required to ruin their countries in doing so. They have the right and the obligation (in support of the common good within their own countries) to control immigration.
Societies within those wealthy countries have the obligation to treat immigrants with the full measure of human dignity that they afford natives. They are not to exploit them, use them as slave labor, pay them less than the going rate for the same labor as they would pay natives, and so on.
Immigrants have a responsibility to respond with thankfulness to their society: taking up their fair share of burdens, respecting the culture of the society they've adopted, and respecting its laws.
Thus, a person who crosses the border illegally is already living out of touch with what the Church teaches right off the bat.
But I don't agree that the issues I raised do not provide a response. They are central to that response. The fact of the matter is that our government has tacitly welcomed illegals into the country for decades. They have not sealed the borders. They do not enforce employment law or tax law. They provide socialist benefits to illegals just the same as legal residents (socialism has consistently been condemned by the Church [i.e., the Popes] since the days of Pius IX...and by every pope since that time). They do just enough to mollify those who are outraged by illegal immigration.
So the real message that has been provided to these people (and they are people, remember) is that if you can survive a tough passage into the country, you're home free and can live the good life. They have compadres who send money home on a regular basis; they receive letters and phone calls from friends in the US who say it's no problemo; they watch Spanish-language programming being exported from the US (e.g., Univision) that give the message "come on up," and what do they end up thinking? SHould I live in a sh*t-hole here or should I endure a tough trip for a chance to live in a place where I, too, can get a monster Chevy truck?
That does not excuse the fact that they knowingly violated the law, but I can actually understand it. (I remember as a high school youth, the drinking age was 18...but that didn't stop anybody from buying beer at 16...nobody cared and, thus, it was an ineffective law)
So the bottom line is who's fault is this situation? Is it the fault of the illegal who broke the law in crossing the border and not paying taxes on cash earnings? Yes.
But that's not all.
It is also the fault of the employers who wanted to get away with labor at cut-rate prices while, oh, by the way, avoiding having to pay those nasty payroll taxes like they would if they hired Americans.
And
It is also the fault of the government that didn't secure the borders and that refuses to actually enforce existing laws when it comes to hiring people who are not authorized to work and paying taxes as they should. (Also, I'd wager that state and local governments are violating multiple laws paying welfare out to illegals and to registering their vehicles and giving them identity papers...better known as driver licenses)
Now, back to what the Church teaches. (the above rant was pertinent to it, believe it or not)
Fact of the matter is that these people are human beings. Fact of the matter is that these people have families. Regardless of language or whatever...they are human beings.
Fact of the matter is that, according to Catholic teaching, they are owed a certain amount of dignity just due to the fact that they are human beings.
And as a matter of justice (not social justice, juridic justice), one has to figure out how resolve the situation justly. And, for the most part, I think that is what most of the bishops are struggling with.
The problem is that if you merely deport one family member (either the father or the mother), you've messed up a family.
And, frankly, if all you do is deport, all you do is just create a vacuum that is going to be filled again. Maybe by the same people; maybe by others -- but a vacuum is going to be filled.
The bishops are calling for immigration reform. True. But I don't think that I've heard about the majority of them calling for open borders. There are a couple who have (most notably Mahony), but most want a decent solution: temporary work visas, not separating families, and so on.
And most of them that I have read do, in fact, call for a secure border.
Me, personally, with my knowledge (as limited as it is) of Catholic doctrine, I would call for the following (which I believe would be totally in accord with Catholic teaching:
In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.
Encyclical Centesimus Annus, 48
So it is apparent that revising our entire welfare system would be in order. That is a totally different matter, but certainly long-term assistance to those present illegally would be a good place to start.
You say, Rightly or wrongly, the anger and frustration will be targeted somewhere, and the results probably won't be pretty.
You are right.
But what kind of anger and frustration would be focused on those people who hire illegals for cut rates, don't withhold taxes on them, don't pay their share of employment taxes (FICA, unemployment, etc.)? I think that the anger which rightfully exists could be spread out a lot.
People have every right in the world to be mad at illegal aliens. But they should be just as angry at those who entice them to come here...and just as angry at the government who winks and nods at the problem or the politicians who try to use the issue for their personal gain.
I agree completely. My approach in our past hispanic church was to find a Christian lawyer who would help them find ways to get in line, but seek sponsors. Not always successful, because it means pulling up stakes. I’d sure like to find some workable strategies.
BTW, thanks for your gentle reply. I had my head between my shoulders wondering if a flame was about to come. I’m glad to hear someone recognize that it’s really difficult in the churches. I agree with you too, 100%, to encourage people to break the law is not right morally and especially biblically.
“So enlighten me, why is the Catholic Church aiding and abetting lawbreakers?”
My friend, if you have proof of the Catholic Church (in totality) or just locally aiding and abetting lawbreakers... should you not report it?!
You got a phone number of somebody outside of Arizona who actually cares?
““Then give to Caesar what is Caesar, but give to God what is God’s.” (Mat 22:15-21)
I’m surprised you guys have the guts to show up around here with the unabashed support of the Catholic Church for the illegal invasion.
Last Sunday, Assumption Day, there was a parade here complete with Mexican Flags and Aztec dancers headed to the local Catholic Church.
So enlighten me, why is the Catholic Church aiding and abetting lawbreakers?”
****
I’d agree with you, if you said “some people” in the “Catholic Church”. Particularly “some” bishops.
This “radical” support of the “illegal INVASION” is not unique to “just” “some” Catholics and Catholic Bishops.
You have “other” churches and members just as involved in this “illegal INVASION”!
So... what is the story? Or wuzzup wid dat?
I like your use of the word “invasion”. For that is exactly what it is!
A lot of people care.
Like approximately 70% of the American people.
I hear your frustration but be a little more judicious in your post as re: the “Catholic Church”.
I just don’t like my Faith getting gored for what a few individuals do or say! I may be even more PO’d than you.
But I don’t blame the entire Catholic Church for what a few numbskull priests say or do.
From what I understand, the illegals aren’t strictly Catholic. In fact, there’s a good percentage of native folk who practice their own pagan religion, Protestants/”Reformed,” or irreligious, as the Catholic Church was actually persecuted by the Mexican government during many years of the 20th century.
This is what set me off:
and this crap:
The Archbishop of Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony has come out swinging against Arizona's illegal immigration measure calling it something the Nazis would have been proud of.
So you tell me what conclusions I'm supposed to draw...
Then you get to less fundamental issues such as the death penalty and illegal immigration, where there is room for debate. In the 1st world countries in particular, the bishops and priests have been influenced by liberation theology or just plain socialism/Marxism, and they, like all leftists, place their ideology above their religion, and so their actions on these issues, just in the case of the more fundamental issues, are influenced by their ideology.
It's going to take some strong leadership and some divine intervention to clean up this mess.
Most excellent post especially regards to criminal penalties for those employing illegal invaders.
As to the dillema of “some” Bishops. I agree with “some” of what they have to say... as to the dignity of them being human beings.
What I have a HUGE problem with is what they don’t say and how they mischaracterize this “invasion” and its effects on our American culture and its effect on law, on order, respect for this country and a balance of power shift that in effect can victimize native Americans and put them into second class status.
I'm sure there are lots of "good people" illegals, but who is going to sort them out? Are we going to reward the "good" lawbreakers by letting them stay and send back the "bad" ones?
Not entirely accurate, as you're only seeing things at the bishops/social justice activist level. The opposition of the Catholics here on FR to illegal immigration ought to tell you that it's an issue where there's a debate going on.
I agree in your answer to G&B.
These smarmy throwbacks to liberation theology and “social justice” are vipers.
Again, it is not what they say on this issue but what they hide.
Pope Benedict when he was a Cardinal back in 1981 said of “liberation theology”, that “it is a fundamental threat to the faith of the church”!
These “liberal” priests are wrong when they press the government to “impose” rules of “social justice” on U.S. for the benefit of ILLEGAL INVADERS!
As Pope Benedict said,”Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.”
No amount of Politically Correct jargon or euphemisms can change I.L.L.E.G.A.L. or that misnamed term “anchor baby”!
I suggest “lottery baby”!
Having said that, your explanation indicates that there is a management crisis in the Catholic Church. There is a huge group of US citizens whose quality of life has been degraded by the illegals. We're fed up with it and there's going to be a reckoning.
It would seem that the smart play would be for senior management in your organization to direct middle management and front line workers to take NO position on the issue, or seek other employment.
Perhaps senior management needs to hear this from their consumers - you.
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