So, you believe doctrinal differences are lies? Really, you should learn the definitions of words before you use them, especially inflammatory words like lie and lying.
BTW, Mormonism does not teach that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are "created beings." Because we do not believe in creation ex nihilo, terms such as created being, necessary being, contingent being, etc. are foreign to our doctrine. So, according to your criterion, are you lying about us?
If something began then it had a beginning, so it was either created by someone or something already created, or came to be ex nihilo. By speciously juxtaposing the term 'ex nihilo' with the ... no wait! we should quote you directly:
"... Mormonism does not teach that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are "created beings." Because we do not believe in creation ex nihilo, terms such as created being, necessary being, contingent being, etc. are foreign to our doctrine." logophile(Because Mormon doctrine is not Christianity! As we shall see immediately.)
You have offered a false syllogism, fractured in such a way as to appear truthful, but in reality obfuscating to the max what your religion/religion's founders taught regarding the Mormon god, the Mormon jesus, and the Mormon holy spirit. I will enumerate further ...
You tell us that Mormonism does not teach that god, jesus, and the holy spirit are created beings. In the next breath you eliminate the possibility of creation 'ex nihilo', leaving only--when compared with the teachings from your founders--an endless progression of created beings from which the supposed god council draws the next generations of gods ... which contradicts what God has spoken of regarding His I AM status. You have implied that the universe of spiritual and nonspiritual beings is eternal but the god of Mormonism had a beginning in some distant past realm, yet you want us to be confused into believing you do not believe the god of Mormonism was a created being!
My first observation of such antics is to wonder if you actually are capable of seeing the deceit at the heart of your parsing! So here follows direct quotes from your religion's first great liar, JOseph Smith, then the sleazy parsing of subsequent LDS leaders ... pay close attention to the parsing your peepstone liar uses with the term 'in the beginning':
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
"I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
"Endowed with agency and subject to eternal laws, man began his progression and advancement in pre-existence, his ultimate goal being to attain a state of glory, honor, and exaltation like the Father of spirits. During his earth life he gains a mortal body, receives experience in earthly things, and prepares for a future eternity after the resurrection when he will continue to gain knowledge and intelligence. (D. & C. 130:18-19.) This gradually unfolding course of advancement and experience -- a course that began in a past eternity and will continue in ages future -- is frequently referred to as a course of eternal progression." (For the math challenged, there is no such thing as a different or past eternity separate from the eternity we are traveling now. This flimflam approach to fibbing is prevalent in Mormonism. If something began then it had a beginning, so it was either created or came to be ex nihilo.)
"Those who gain exaltation, having thus enjoyed the fullness of eternal progression, become like God." It should be realized that God is not progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes of godliness. He has already gained these things in their fullness. But he is progressing in the sense that his creations increase, his dominions expand, his spirit offspring multiply, and more kingdoms are added to his domains. (Elder Bruce McConkie, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 5-10.) (So far the teaching from Mormon leadership has left choices: either everything has always existed without ever being created, or the god of Mormonism was on equal standing with each of us in some nebulous past eternity of pre-existence, or everything is created but distributed into separate eternities.)"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).
"Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
There is so much collected from the writings of the LDS leadership that is available on the Net we could go on and on quoting this rot. But let's pause to consider the deceit at the heart of this stuff. We'll make an assumption that logophile and all the teachers we've quoted really believe this rot. Whom does that leave as responsible for these heretical teachings? The father of lies, a murderer from the start. And it is he, the father of lies, who is murdering the souls of those who swallow this rot and are drawn away from the simple plan of Salvation through faithing in the Grace of God in Christ. 'Salvation cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.' The above quoted rot from Mormon leaders is not 'The Word of I AM'. It is the lies from the father of lies, writ large as some Christianity lookalike posed speciously as restoration of God's Plan of Salvation.
Mormonism was founded by a liar. You can chose which liar to blame, but the following re-quoted is heresy writ large by Mormonism as gospel from someone, but not the God of the Bible:
“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844) [This is a great lie, too great a lie for even the liar Joseph Smith to have fabricated on his own! So whom is then the founder of Mormonism? HINT: it is not I AM.]
“So, you believe doctrinal differences are lies?”
No... but then I do not have “doctrinal differences” with
mormonism. I believe what God says in the Bible that is the
opposite of what mormonism teaches.
“Really, you should learn the definitions of words before you use them, especially inflammatory words like lie and lying.”
When something is true, it is not inflammatory to say what it is: a lie. Telling the truth about what mormonism teaches is only inflammatory to those in the grip of the cult.
“BTW, Mormonism does not teach that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are “created beings.” Because we do not believe in creation ex nihilo, terms such as created being, necessary being, contingent being, etc. are foreign to our doctrine. So, according to your criterion, are you lying about us?”
Mormonism teaches all four mormon earth gods started their existence as spirit beings - ie. had a point of creation where they went from non-existence to existence.
This is a lie and makes God into a created being, instead
of eternal God.
The fact that you parse words to [apparently] avoid the truth, is not the problem of others. It is your problem. I believe you probably knew exactly what I meant, when I wrote “created”, yet [apparently] the mormon reflex to shade the truth or offer half truths to cover up the full truth prevailed.
And YOU are asking for instances that demonstrate mormons play fast and loose with the truth?
Your posts are exhibit A.
ampu
Mormon doctrine talks a lot about 'creating'. On the LDS website under Gospel topics - Jesus Christ, He is described as the "Creator". How can He be a creator if he didn't 'create' anything logos?
Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that " God the Father, created this and other worlds. . "
In a 1909 statement by the First Presidency entitled "The Origin of Man," where four essential points are made: (1) God created humans (Gen. 1:27-28); (2) God created Adam, "the origin of the human family" and "the first man"; (3) creation was sequential: first spiritual, later physical; and (4) each human body displays the characteristics of the individual premortal spirit that inhabits it." Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Again logos - "created".
I could go on logos, the point is lds teaching is schizophrenic on this point. I know precisely your point - pagan platoism - uncreated 'intelligences' - yet mormon doctrines and teachings overwhelmingly refer to 'creating'. So according to AMPU's criteria, he is not lying - yet by parsing your words you are close to misrepresenting mormon doctrine to the other extent.
Wow! Talk about misleading statements.
To be "technically correct" here, Logo has to indirectly appeal to Mormon doctrines like D&C 93:29,33...where no spirit (whether you're talking about demons, gods, or men) has ever been created. They always have been. All eternally self-existent.
IOW, AMPU, all Logophile is saying here is that you or I actually are not created beings, either!!!! You see, even before any Mormon pre-existent birth, D&C 93:29,33 says you were a spirit and/or intelligence. You have always existed; therefore, you were never created. Therefore, what is true of you applies to the Mormon gods as well!
And so, on this technicality, Logophile is able to "technically" frame a true statement. But you know, you can say something that is "true" in a technical way, but yet still be misleading.
Now I don't know if Logophile's intent was to mislead...I don't know his inner heart...all I know is that he didn't offer up the "rest of the story."
So allow me to do that:
AMPU, instead of what you said, if you had said (revisions in italics):
1. Mormonism obfuscates about God as a man
2. Mormonism lies about Christ as a saved being
3. Mormonism covers up its belief about the Holy Spirit being labeled a "man"
4. Mormonism lies that there are multiple gods
Then from my vantage point of what Mormon leaders have gone on record as claiming, Logo has no basis for objecting.
How so?
1. We know Gordon B. Hinckley obfuscated about the Snow couplet on a couple of interview occasions.
2. We know Bruce McConkie (and Millet) have taught that Jesus was a "saved being." (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257)
3. We know Mormons are not up front in referencing the Holy Ghost as a mere "man"...so they tuck that away and hide it. [See Encyclopedia of Mormonism quote below]
4. And, AMPU, you've been hitting the "gods" aspect right on.
As for why I labeled Logo's statements as misleading, I think readers would find the following Mormon statements to be quite eye-opening in that they clearly teach how they regard god and man to be:
...of the SAME nature and race.
...(IOW, when you study anthropology, you are studying God per Mormonism).
Holy Ghost:
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man, a spirit son of God the Father. It is fundamental Church doctrine that God is the Father of the spirits of all men and women, that Jesus is literally God's Son both in the spirit and in the flesh, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit separate and distinct from both the Father and the Son.” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 2:649)
Jesus Christ:
“Latter-day Saints are monophysite in their Christology, that is, they believe Christ has only one nature, which is simultaneously both human and divine. This is possible because the human and the divine are not mutually exclusive categories in LDS thought, as in the duophysite Christology of much orthodoxy” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 1:401)
Christ attained Godhood while yet in the pre-existence...” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323)
Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws” (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 51)
God the Father:
“God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement” (Lds “apostle” John A. Widtsoe, Rational Theology, 1915, p. 61)
”According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men.” (Bruce R. Mconkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 250)
”The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church.” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997, p. 34)
”We offend again in our doctrine that men are of the same race with the divine personages we call Gods. Great stress is laid upon the idea that we believe that 'as man is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become.' The world usually shouts 'blasphemy' and 'sacrilege' at one when he talks of such a possibility” (B.H. Roberts, 1992, Defense of The Faith and The Saints 2:570)