Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
perusal=personal
Spot on, Kolo mou. One cannot approach faith with reason and remain faithful. The Age or reason is the precursor of atheism and it is no coincidence that it was energized by the Protestant west.
Western Christians need to learn humility. A step in that direction will be to accept that they don't need to know everything!
That's what happens when you treat your faith as knowledge and not hope.
It really scares me when they say "God told me so." I never know what their next move will be.
"Every heresy in the history of the Church has been either a truth exaggerated to an excess, or diminished to a defect" —.” Bishop Fulton J Sheen
Is anything sounds too good to be true, or hard to believe it probably isn't.
John 20:19 an “illustration” of Jesus’ birth? Let's see.
Before birth Jesus is in tightly closed up womb and then remaining flesh comes into the outside world as an infant. No indication in Scripture that the birth process was anything but normal.
Jesus is resurrected as a spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and goes from the outside world into a room, a space with many others present and appears as a full grown person.
The second is recorded in John's gospel, part of God's inspired word.
The idea that Jesus was born passing “through the hymen of His mother not violating it” is the silliness from the Infancy Gospel of James, a fraudulent work.
So I ask ‘What does John 20:19 have to do with the birth of Jesus?’
Am honored, touched and blessed that you do.
LOL.
annalex wrote:
“No it is not ‘necessary for salvation’ in the same sense as ‘I believe in God’ is. But this part, ‘I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church’ is in the Creed, and comes without a disclaimer about ‘unless it is a historically known fact.’”
Here is your standard answer to all questions: ‘The Catholic Church is right in all things. The Catholic Church says this or that. Therefore it is so, and must be believed.’
It is interesting that you say the perpetual virginity of Mary (which as you know I have no problem with, but do not consider or believe to be Scriptural doctrine) is not ‘necessary for salvation’ in the same sense as ‘I believe in God.’ This is, of course, a dodge. You can never let words simply mean what they mean. You do insist that believing Mary to have been perpetually virgin is necessary for salvation, because the Catholic Church says she was, and the Catholic Church cannot be disbelieved on pain of damnation. So, your phrase ‘in the same sense’ is in effect a distinction without a difference.
Now, when it comes to your phrase, ‘I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,’ which is from the Nicene rather than the Apostles’ Creed, you mean to say that you believe in the Church similarly to the way you believe in God. That is what you are saying. Because every time you make this assertion it has to do with the authority, power, and prerogatives of the Catholic Church, what it can and cannot do, what does and does not teach.
But, you know, the Creed doesn’t say that. It doesn’t mean that. It doesn’t hold anyone to that. Now, of course, you are going to disagree because you have been taught by holy mother Church that it does too mean that. But look at the Creed, whether Apostles’ or Nicene (there is no mention of the church in the Athanasian) carefully. When it says I believe in God, it attributes real authority, power, prerogatives, and works accomplished and being accomplished to each of the persons of the Trinity. It attributes no such things to the church. None.
You see the Catholic Church as a visible entity whose authority and power you are supposed to fear, love, and trust. But the Creed does not say that. It attributes nothing to the Church except existence. It exists. This has to be confessed for one simple reason. No one can see it. I believe in the holy Christian/Catholic Church just as I believe in the Communion of Saints, just as I believe in the forgiveness of sins, just as I believe in the resurrection of the body, just as I believe in the life everlasting. I can see none of them. They are not tangible, subject to discovery by my natural senses. I can only believe them to be, to exist. They are real to be sure. I know that because God says so. But I can only take Him at His word.
No, annalex, you attribute things to the Church that are not to be found in the Creed. The things you believe are accretions and suppositions that were attached to the “Catholic” understanding of the Creed. But such things were not written into the Creed for the very good reason that they are not only not necessary for salvation (AT ALL, not just in some sense), but also because many are simply not true. The men of Nicaea were not fools. They were serious men who took the Word of God seriously, and who feared, loved, and trusted God above all things, and Him alone.
The belief in God spoken of in the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds is a belief in the very things about God that are plainly stated in the Creed. To say otherwise is simply disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. When the Creed says, “I believe in God the Father,” it immediately adds, “Almighty.” It says nothing of the kind about the church. It goes on to add that the “Father” we are here talking about is the “Maker of heaven and earth.” It attributes no such deeds, in fact, no deeds of any kind to the church, for the simple reason that the church has no deeds. She is the recipient of the grace of God. She is God’s creation. She is the bride of the Lamb. Even the good that the church does is attributable to the causation of God, who alone is to be praised. You know, “Soli Deo Gloria,” DEO!
The really sad thing is that Romanists like you have so twisted the meaning of the Creed, been so successful in foisting your propaganda about it and its meaning, that you have gotten much of the rest of Christendom to look at it with not belief but disbelief, to stop using it, and even to sneer at those who do still confess it publicly, fervently, trustingly. You have, in effect, driven millions away from the Creed in your arrogance. In this you have done not evangelism, but anti-evangelism. And anti-evangelism is not the modus operandi of the Church of the Christ. It is the modus operandi of the Church of the ...
I will let the discerning reader fill in the blank.
Fortunately - or I should say - by the grace and providence of God, many in the church of the pope still simply believe what the Creed plainly says, hearing there not his voice, but the voice of the real Christ. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) I have met some of them.
SOLI DEO GLORIA
But you, annalex, know the Creed about as well as the clergy of Jesus’ day knew the Old Testament. They stood before the Lord and argued meaning, that it meant what they said, not what He said. (John 5:31-47) Moses stood as their judge. His Antitype will stand as yours.
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I believe I understand your belief that the Eastern Church is considerably more faithful to the "early" Church than the Latin variety. In fact, I am in total agreement.
However, I am of the belief that no Church is truly faithful to the Church of the Apostles. The passage of hundreds of years allowed for many legalistic "betterments" to the original practice.
Perhaps. But we Orthodox are a simple people and do the best we can with what God has given us. :)
LOL! That's not what the Greek text says. It simply says "The last [Adam] is [εἰς] a living [ζῳοποιοῦν] Spirit." Gnostic Paul at his best.
and goes from the outside world into a room, a space with many others present and appears as a full grown person
So, him being a Spirit only appeared to have a body? Is that what you are saying? The Gnostic count-your-change at his best!
Please enlighten me as to just when "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" changed from adjectives to proper nouns in your Creed.
The Eastern Churches are not legalistic, OR.
All that was important was that Mary was a virgin until after the time of her delivery.
Anything after the fact is irrelevant.
But to teach something that unsupportable as absolute truth and threaten people with ex-communication for not believing it demonstrates some serious control issues on SOMEONE’S part.
According to many (most) Catholics Mary spoke to three peasant girls at Fatima, she spoke to Bernadette at Lourdes, she spoke to Juan Diego at Guadalupe, etc.
To quote you; "This is why there is so many heretical teachings today"
Excellent....
If Holy tradition is used as a standard, then anything goes.
You sir, are an honest witness and I admire that.
Agreed. I should have made it clear that the legalistic "betterments" have been developed by the Latin variety.
Scripture isn’t subject to the revision like *Holy Tradition* is.
It’s in writing, we have the oldest available manuscripts to which we can refer if need be.
Tradition is a ship adrift.....
“”According to many (most) Catholics Mary spoke to three peasant girls at Fatima, she spoke to Bernadette at Lourdes, she spoke to Juan Diego at Guadalupe, etc.””
These have been approved by the Church as authentic ,so I believe them to be true.
As in the case of Fatima it’s pretty clear that communism has spread it’s error’s throughout the world.
As my dear friend Kolokotronis once told me that his grandmother and other members in his family said to have regular conversations with the Blessed Mother and no one doubted they did.
There is nothing heretical about this
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