Never mind.
Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
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What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
5. OMNIPRESENT
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
No, AMPU is spot on with this exergesis. Paul writes same =
Ro 5:8* But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The 'wrong' is mormon emphasis that one must be 'worthy' first.
But the chains are on you stormy - it is mormonism where you must be 'fully repentant' to be forgiven.
Christianity is correct - the 'work' is done completely by Christ. “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) I don't see stormy's (or my name) as the one taking it away from the world.
Christ came for everyone and invites all men to follow him. There can be NO GODLY people with out the atonement of Christ. Jesus Christ paid the price for sin for all those who would follow Him.
you've just sunk your argument with this stormy. Christ's atonement permitted the ungodly to approach the throne of grace where HE took the sins away and then made sinner 'godly'. Paul speaks to this in the enlarged passage from Romans that sticks in your craw stormy -
Rom 4:13-23 Paul talks about Abraham and that his righteousness was imputed to him on the basis of his faith alone. Rom 4: 24-25 Paul makes clear that the same righteousness is imputed to us by simple faith where in vs 25 Paul states "Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." Jesus wasn't delivered for us ONLY WHEN WE BECOME GODLY - but for our OFFENSES. Paul continues to rise up in support of AMPU's statement:
5:1* ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2* By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Still see nothing where the person must become godly first. We are dikaioo by faith, dikaioo greek meaning be rendered righteous - by Christ as there is no mention of any works on our part - the whole section refers to Jesus doing the work.
Paul further rebukes your claim stormy
Rom 5:6* For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Now what did AMPU say earlier? [aMorePerfectUnion] Yes, HE came to die for the UNGODLY!
Word for word what Paul wrote in verse 6. In verse 7, Paul puts the final nail in your doctrinal coffin -
7* For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Yet as spoken in verses 6 and 8 - Jesus died for the ungodly.
Sorry stormy if you jumped on the wrong bandwagon.
"Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:" Stourme, who are the 'them' Jesus is referring to and what are the things Jesus commanded them to do? HINT: Jesus was referring to those Saved and baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit, and the things 'them' are to do is love God first and above all, and love one another. Jesus was referring to those in Whom His Salvation has arrived and have lives left to live. Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees who were desperate to know what God command that they do to do the works of righteousness? ... You seen the passage posted for your edification on more than one occasion. Do you believe Jesus?
BTW, Storume, in my post to you where I mention judging, perhaps it would help you if i use 'weigh' and 'weighing' as in weighing your words against what the Bible teaches. So I'll try to do that hereafter, for clarity. It's a good word substitution, since God used it in Daniel Chapter five also (HINT: Mene mene tekel upharsin)
Don’t tinker with other posters’ screen names.
What Godzilla and MHGinTN wrote in response to your post gives more explanation than you even need to understand that without the acknowledgement that YOU are ungodly, Christ’s gospel willdo you no good.
In fact, it is the Mormon insistence on proving themselves worthy that will keep them from His Gospel of grace - and land so many in hell.
Christ came to die for the ungodly. I’m one of the ungodly He died for, thankfully!
AMPU
OK, but it is a very thin skinned method of responding to a post
Do you have a legitimate response Stourme
And not just YOUR words AMPU (please don't report me to the mod), but the very words from the Bible.
“RM can I get a ruling on this constant post after post of Godzilla misspelling my screen name as making it personal? Thanks. See post #102 “
Didn’t stourme just “tinker” with your screen name, Religion Moderator?
No problemo, senior Lizard... In the religion forum we are instructed to have thick skin. The ones who do not are to be considered disruptors according to the guidelines.
I don’t consider initials to be tinkering. If someone calls you “ampu,” that is not tinkering with your screen name. However, if someone calls you “Perfect Onion” that would be tinkering.
And a pretty lame tactic when shown verbatum from the bible your stance is correct.
Still waiting for the intelligent mormon reply stourme ‘cause I’m all out of cheese. Is you skin thick enough to acknowledge that you have your scriptures wrong.
Its right here
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2622457/posts?page=102#102
Bless your little heart, Stourme, you still miss the mark. Asserting that it is irrelevant is precisely how the lies of Mormonism are inveigled, by ignoring the context, to whom a passage is directed, and finding agreement or disagreement in the other scriptures. It's kind of like assuming when Paul said the Bereans search the scriptures daily he was referring to the new Testament, which is silly since it was not yet written, so He must have been referring to the existing Jewish scriptures. But you would not know that unless you studied to know when the various scriptures were authored and in what languages, and written by whom, and from where to whom, etc. So you see, Stourme, you have shown yourself not yet ready to divide the scriptures rightly.
Now, why don't you go and read the passage from Matthew you offered, to see whom is the 'them', and to what Jesus is referring.
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[Godzilla]OK, but it is a very thin skinned method of responding to a post Do you have a legitimate response Stourme |
Stourme, I'm going to rightly quote then 'divide' the Bible passage for you, to give you an illustration of simple exegesis.
2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
First, do you know what is the 'power thereof' with this godliness? You know only God has godliness, right? So, it is possible to show a form of godliness but not have God-liness, according to the passage. When salvation /being born again happens, at that point in time the saved have the Holy Spirit come into their human spirit. As the person lives the subsequent life, the presence of God as the Holy Spirit in their human spirit brings forth godliness, real godliness as source in God, not human endeavor.
Those who show a form of this leadership but are not being lead by His Spirit, these have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof ... to pretend at godliness is to deny God's Holy Spirit to author the godliness which God produces in the Born Again. Until you can have that godliness authored by His presence in you, you are not going to be able to produce a good enough report to reach a state of worthiness for God Grace ... it cannot be done. And here's why: the Ten Commandments are a description of God's nature and unless you can live up to ever one of those ten you are in violation of not having godliness, not having God's nature.
A Christian, in God's sight, has His nature in them because God places a smidgen/the earnest of the inheritance of His Holy Spirit presence in the Born Again.
When a Mormon tells us that God's Grace, His Nature only comes into one after all that they can do to earn the Grace, they are denying the power of godliness, denying that it is ONLY God's Holy Spirit Who can produce the godliness of His nature in the Born Again.
Only Jesus has ever lived up to the ten commandments, because He could not sin, His seed/His Godliness nature remained within Him as He walked among us ... The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us.
When Stourme thinks he can have real godliness without the God of that nature within his human spirit to Author that Nature which is His nature, then Stourme is 'denying the power thereof'.
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