Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
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What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
5. OMNIPRESENT
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
Resty, willful darkening of your mind of understanding is far more devastating to your spirit than any words or phrases you may read at FreeRepublic. That people go to the trouble, in love, of posting for you the actual quotes from your religion’s founders, quotes which are heretical to Christianity, ought to be of some meager worth to you rather than a gaod to your faux sensibilities. Are you not allowed still to post LDS Caucus threads? ... So why do you trouble your delicate mind with visits outside of your Caucuses? And why do you suppose Jim makes a place like the Caucus threads for the posting of all your materials in a prtoected state? Mercy, Resty, you are becoming downright irrational of late!
I never made such a statement resty. I pointed out you are raising a stink about something that isn't / hasn't happened on this thread. Don't try to mind read me and accuse me of that life style.
If you have problems with FR, take it up with the management. However, do not make the mistake and try to smear others with false accusations.
That’s a brilliant insight. It’s to no benefit here, but FReepmail me to discuss it.
If you see a profanity on Free Republic - or if you see potty language on the Religion Forum - let me know by Freepmail.
The goal of Latter-day Saints is to follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ, which is certainly not the same as following the devil.Normandy
Norm, God wants you to FIRST stop striving to follow and always being tripped up by the evil one. God's plan for your Salvation is to trust in the Lord your God and lean not to your own understanding. When you do that, you can be Saved right then, not at some ephemeral trainstation stop in the future to get onboard the train to Heaven. God wants to restore to your spirit inherited from Adam, the LIFE of God which went out of Adam's spirit in Eden. when you stop striving and let Him be your Savior, His Life will be restored in your human spirit as the earnest of the inheritance which awaits you according to His promises not your works to earn His Grace.
I love my son because he is my son, not because he has earned my love. You stop striving and trust Jesus to be at that instant your Redeemer, and you will be from that moment onward a son of the Most High God, by His promise, not by your works. THAT phenomenal occurance is what Jesus called being born again by the Spirit when he spoke with Nicodemus as recorded in John Chapter three. Regardless of how you interpret the fact that Jesus siad born of water AND of the Spirit, you must see that Jesus taught Nic that at that moment a man is born again into the family of God, not at some far point at the end of a life lived striving to be worhty of God's mercy.
My son is now over forty and I love him with much more depth than I did when he was a beautiful little suntanned toddler with his bahboe in his mouth. He didn't have to earn my love, but his life has certainly earned my respect and admiration for the man he has grown into.
Jesus consistently taught people to abandon sin, to live lives of charity and righteousness and to follow his teachings and sayings.
Matthew 7:
“24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. “
According to Jesus it is very important not only to hear his sayings (Jesus had just given the sermon on the mount), but to do them.
I don’t believe for a moment that people who take Jesus at his word and try to follow his teachings are being tricked into following the devil.
Remember what James says, faith without works is dead.
Regards,
Normandy
First, can works generate faith, or do works evidence the presence of faith? ... Before you put both feet in your mouth to spew some fable of Mormonism, the Bible answers that very clearly. I would advise you to dig for it but I am convinced that Mormonism has so blinded your mind that you would not see it if you stumbled across it, so I'll enumerate.
Look carefully at the story of Abraham taking Isaac up on the mountain for the ritual of sacrifice that God had commanded Abraham to carry out. Before Abraham set foot up the mountain, he gave them/us a clue to those who were told to wait while he went up the mountain.
Abraham told the waiters that 'they would return to them after the ritual was completed'. THAT IS THE Working of indwelling faith, for though Abraham had not brought along a sacrifice for the ritual, he believed there would be one, and if it be his son he trusted--faithed, as in the verb faithing--that God would keep His precious promise to make of Abraham descendants more numerous than the grains of sand, through Isaac. Abraham was faithing in the Promises of God without having a time machine to know what or how God would make it so, thus it was counted for him righteousness (Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ). Now this was before the Crucufixion and resurrection.
Read Hebrews and see what the author has to say about the exercising of faith. Faith in Jesus as Savior, Redeemer, THE Deliverer is the substance God values, not your works you trust are done to earn worthiness.
Abraham exhibited faith in God's promises BEFORE he acted out his faith on the mountain, but he did act out his faith, thus his faith was alive not dead without works. The lesson is that faith when it is alive and you are 'faithing' in God's Promises will exhibit acts/works BECAUSE HE indwells your human spirit, not because you're striving to earn His Grace. There are other examples in Hebrews which will help to elucidate this concept. Enjoy
It amuses me that while we are having a hard time agreeing on even small matters from the scriptures, some one who does not even seem to understand the smallest of matters are usually the ones who come up with this kind of stuff.
I will admit that i do not know, but i doubt it.
I think works do proceed from faith, and also that good works strengthen and increase faith.
I also agree with James who said that faith and works are both necessary.
Acts 15:13-21 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up (Amos 9:11):
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things (Amos 9:12).Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
This pronouncement was being sent to gentiles. James did not say 'follow the ten commandments and all the law and the prophets or your salvation will be cancelled'. Yet that is precisely what Mormonism teaches!
'Abstain from pollution of idols' is an interesting point, because later we find that Paul explains some (himself included) may have eaten food that had been offered to idols, but it didn't cancel his Salvation!
Abstain from fornication was perhaps an admonishment to not have pre-marital sex because such behavior has been frowned upon by God from the beginning, yet even this behavior is not a condition posed by which these gentile Christians would lose their Salvation.
The last two items are how we know this was aimed at trying to not cause contention between Jews converted to Christianity and the gentiles. Paul later addresses the freedom of Christians juxtaposed with the legalism of judaizers (Mormons).
What are you yammerin' about again, Resty?
Are you so desperate to change the focus of this thread that you have first try to focus it on me -- and then some imaginary fantasy language issues?
OK. "Have it your way," to quote a certain commercial. You just brought up that which hinders the "presents" [sic] of the Lord from being here on these threads. I have some pertinent questions for you:
How can the "presents" [sic] of the Mormon gods even be here when...?:
(a) Brigham Young taught: "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so. He is no more every where present in person than the Father and Son are one in person" (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 23-24).
So, apparently you're not talking about one of the Mormon gods who masquerades as the Father-God of Christianity, who is everywhere! 'Cause to reference us back to the article of this thread, #5 cites the prophet Jeremiah: "Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
(And here Saundra Duffy, not very long ago on a thread, was claiming that Jesus isn't limited in any way...but the Mormon "prophets" limit God's presence???)
But, Resty, you also said "the Spirit of the Lord...so perhaps you were talking about the Holy Spirit. But did not your sixth "prophet," Joseph F. Smith, who wrote D&C 138, say...?:
(b): “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son...” (Joseph F. Smith, 6th Lds “prophet,” Discourses on the Holy Ghost, N.B. Lundwall, ed., p. 53)
So there ya go, Resty. Brigham said the Mormon jesus' literal dad was limited...he keeps up his place @ Kolob. (I'm sure he's not traversing to freeperland very often). And then Joseph F. Smith comes along as the 4th "prophet" later & says, "Nope. The Holy Ghost ain't no more everywhere than the other 2 gods are."
So pray tell, Resty what "presents" [sic] are you talking about?
I'll bet you whoever converted you from Presbyterianism, Resty, never told you about their theological handcuffs that they placed on the omnipresence of the Mormon gods, did they? ('Cause the way you talk about the "presents [sic] of the Spirit of the Lord" almost seems like a throwback vocabulary to your Christian days)
The desperation shown by the mormons in this thread and in mine, International Appearances of the Resurrected Jesus with their continuous ad hominem attacks and lack of rebuttal is very interesting.
They have NO way to counter the articles that are posted with actual mormon belief and doctrine.
Must suck to be them.
Welcome to the family, SZonian; get into a good Bible study, inductively if you can find one in your area, and show yourselve a workman who is not to be ashamed.
“yourselve” - yourself
James 1: 22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [The ‘work’ James speaks of being a doer thereof is faithing in God’s Promise to the Saved, not to those hoping to someday be saved. James is addressing the process of faithing (verb) in the Holy Spirit guide within, Who transforms us during the rest of our life int he flesh. Following is Paul’s address to this same concept of the Saved being transformed by faithing in God. Notice Paul's use of the present tense--actually the present perfect--when explaining this process of faithing in God's transforming presence within the believer.]
Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. [Because of His righteousness in you in the presence of His Holy Spirit in your before dead human spirit.] 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
Momronism teaches you to try by your works to put to deatht he misdeeds/theadamic nature, but the Bible teaches you to BY THE Spirit of Him Who dwells in you to put to death the adamic nature. If you could do it, why would Paul and James address this as a Holy Spirit accomplishement for which you cannot take prideful credit?
Are you being sarcastic?
EVERYONE who is alive on earth today is here because God ordained it.
Believers in Christ have a responsibility to share the truth, i.e., the gospel with the world that is in darkness.
the LDS are in darkness. God will remove each one when it is in His timing, as the number of our days are known and ordained also.
As far as their (the Mormons) leading us, thank the Lord that we still live in a free country where we can vote for our leaders. Christians should consider what these candidates say, do (as a way of life), and vote on, and hold that up to the Word of God to determine how to vote.
For there are moral people who are running for office, to be sure, but there are also Christians, that is, people who are following Christ and not ashamed or afraid to talk about Him. Some of those moral people are Mormon. Some of those moral people are of orthodox denominations, but not necessarily Christians.
We need Christ and the Word of God, which is the wisdom of God, to make all decisions in life, including decisions about for whom to vote.
Great testimony, Brother Szonian...we are together adopted into Jesus' family, just as the apostle Paul said several times.
Your former brethren, Lds, who claim we're all literal spirit children of God, have no way of dealing with...
...Biblical verses about spiritual adoptions...
...or Biblical verses calling the Pharisees sons of the devil (John 8)
...or John 1:12, where John said we have to have authority to BECOME sons of God...
...or even Book of Mormon verses from Mosiah which also says people become sons of God -- that they are not automatically "sons of the pre-existence"...
I agree with Greyfoxx -- it must really suck to try to figure out Mormon doctrine...no wonder the First Presidency is now resorting to telling Mormons at sacrament meetings to stop sending them doctrinal questions -- see Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me
I mean, ya gotta wonder why they chose sacrament meetings to make that announcement.
I mean, didn't they just have a General Conference in Utah beamed world-wide earlier in October? Couldn't they have made the announcement then? And why a Sacrament meeting vs. other meetings held at the local level?
Well...guess what? They weren't counting on Lds journalists like Robert Kirby to blab this information internationally. They didn't want the announcement to go to all Mormons...just the most faithful ones...the ones who would more likely be there for a sacrament meeting.
But, I digress. We praise the Lord for the Holy Spirit moving within you to embrace the true Father and the true Son in a relationship with you: And this is eternal life. That you KNOW the ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (John 17:3)
Are there other Lds who would like to publicly come forward and confess this Jesus as your Lord? Lurkers? Veteran FReepers?
Will you honor the Holy Spirit who has testified within and through Szonian by confessing the One who the Holy Spirit wants to glorify, Jesus Christ, as the ONLY SAVIOR? Joseph Smith in his final months of his life claimed that...
"I am going on in my progress for eternal life. It is not only necessary that you should be baptized for your dead, but you will HAVE TO go through all the ordinances for them, the same as you have gone through TO SAVE YOURSELVES. There will be 144,000 saviors on Mount Zion..." (Book open in front of me on this very keyboard, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1938, p. 366).
Mormon, confess Joseph Smith, and you have "144,000 saviors."
Confess Jesus Christ, and you have the ONE and ONLY Savior...: "Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE Saviour of the world. (John 4:42) "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)
Confess Joseph Smith, and the "salvation hoop" Joseph Smith says you have to jump "through" are "all the ordinances...the same as you have gone through TO SAVE YOURSELVES.
Do you really want to be your own savior? Can you really trust yourself for your salvation per Joseph Smith?
Come to the ONLY Savior, the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
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