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LDS View of God Contradicts the Bible
Utah Lighthouse Ministry.org ^

Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian

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To: Colofornian

***I think it’s fine when people hand out tracts to Lds going into events, or coming out of events.***

Many years ago “Granny Geer” came and spoke here. The autos were plastered with flyers about her, even those at the Mormon church.

Then out came two mormon men and removed all the flyers from the autos.

During her speech, which was really interesting, the only altercation was when she said something derogatory about MASONRY! One old Mason man bellyached real loud and got up and left. This area is a strong MASONRY area.


51 posted on 11/06/2010 8:38:43 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: restornu

What cheese do you prefer with your usual whine?


52 posted on 11/06/2010 9:41:49 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Stourme; Paragon Defender; Adam-ondi-Ahman; America always; Antonello; Arrowhead; asparagus; ...

When you think about it more their are to many F words spewed on FR for the Light of Chist let alone for the Holy Spirit to ever be welcome.....

are we not asking the Lord to help us to restore this nation and it is going to take the light of Christ to do it.

You tell me how is that going to happen when this place is layden with F words?

When the antis have Carte Blancheto trash any church let along the LDS Church!


53 posted on 11/06/2010 9:44:14 AM PDT by restornu (Brien V Cooper the pooper scooper!)
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There are NO Principle here only lip service!


54 posted on 11/06/2010 9:45:18 AM PDT by restornu (Brien V Cooper the pooper scooper!)
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Correction

When you think about it more, there are to many F words spewed on FR for the Light of Christ let alone for the Holy Spirit to ever be welcome.....

are we not asking the Lord to help us to restore this nation and it is going to take the light of Christ to do it.

You tell me how is that going to happen when this place is layen with F words?

When the antis have Carte Blanche to trash any church let even the LDS Church!

There are no principles here only lip service


55 posted on 11/06/2010 9:52:29 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu; Jim Robinson
So why are you here? When no one would pay attention to your daily LDS affirmation posts, you found a way to ramp up your hate speech and get noticed. And a few loud-mouth semi-literate in Momronism apologists joined in to make LDS inc threads lengthy debate threads. You seemed happy with the impasse those threads reached, but now that real indepth study of Mormonism by a few Inmans has resulted in sound opposition and exposure of the heresies at the dark heart of Mormonism you are upset with FreeRepublic. Perhaps you should take this up with the man whose site you choose to insult. I've sent to him a ping, since I doubt he bothers with LDS inc threads unless he's on duty as moderator. If you're so inclined to infer that “F” bombs are being tossed around on LDS threads—which of course you have zero proof of since it doesn't happen—why do you spend so much time on these threads offering so vacuous responses?
56 posted on 11/06/2010 10:01:21 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: restornu; Religion Moderator
You tell me how is that going to happen when this place is layden with F words?

what 'f' words resty - there are absolutely none in this thread and only an oblique reference to 'obscenities' (which by mormon definition is anything that challenges their religion). So what board ARE you reading resty.

When the antis have Carte Blancheto trash any church let along the LDS Church!

and mormons can continue to call all other churches the 'whore of babylon'. I'll try to bring some cheese next time for your whine.

57 posted on 11/06/2010 10:15:24 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: MHGinTN

The sin of Cain was murder — the shedding of innocent blood. Not sure how you equate that with LDS teachings.

The goal of devout Mormons is to serve and worship God — quite the opposite of what Satan does.

The goal of Latter-day Saints is to follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ, which is certainly not the same as following the devil.


58 posted on 11/06/2010 10:23:37 AM PDT by Normandy
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To: LouAvul

Strange but true. It is one of those strange cognitive dissonances on the surface of observation. They are trained to pridefully exude behavioral superiority while simultaneously hiding their core beliefs which are full of apostasy - a lesson in satanic deception.

59 posted on 11/06/2010 10:57:39 AM PDT by delacoert
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To: Normandy
Cain's sin came before he murdered his brother, when Cain brought what he deemed a worthy offering which was rejected (and sin lieth at the door) yet his brother Abel's sacrifice was pleasing to God. It was that defiance toward God which stamped Cain a man of sin, and he subsequently murdered his brother.

LDS teaches you that you too can be like Cain and bring your works as an offering you count as worhty for God's Grace to then be applied to your soul. THAT IS THE SIN OF CAIN. I am not surprised that you are blind to this Truth in Genesis. Your religion teaches 'after all that you can do' ... it didn't work for Cain and it won't work for you, Norm, even as you feign ignorance regarding the sin of Cain.

60 posted on 11/06/2010 10:57:59 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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Comment #61 Removed by Moderator

To: restornu

Resty, willful darkening of your mind of understanding is far more devastating to your spirit than any words or phrases you may read at FreeRepublic. That people go to the trouble, in love, of posting for you the actual quotes from your religion’s founders, quotes which are heretical to Christianity, ought to be of some meager worth to you rather than a gaod to your faux sensibilities. Are you not allowed still to post LDS Caucus threads? ... So why do you trouble your delicate mind with visits outside of your Caucuses? And why do you suppose Jim makes a place like the Caucus threads for the posting of all your materials in a prtoected state? Mercy, Resty, you are becoming downright irrational of late!


62 posted on 11/06/2010 11:09:53 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: restornu
"So in your life style MHGinTN, Godzilla of serving the Lord the F bomb is fine with you ..."restonu
Resty, do yourself a favor and look up the terms 'red herring' and 'strawman'.
63 posted on 11/06/2010 11:12:36 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: restornu; Religion Moderator
So in your life style MHGinTN, Godzilla of serving the Lord the F bomb is fine with you

I never made such a statement resty. I pointed out you are raising a stink about something that isn't / hasn't happened on this thread. Don't try to mind read me and accuse me of that life style.

If you have problems with FR, take it up with the management. However, do not make the mistake and try to smear others with false accusations.

64 posted on 11/06/2010 11:12:38 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: webboy45

That’s a brilliant insight. It’s to no benefit here, but FReepmail me to discuss it.


65 posted on 11/06/2010 11:13:54 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: restornu

If you see a profanity on Free Republic - or if you see potty language on the Religion Forum - let me know by Freepmail.


66 posted on 11/06/2010 11:16:01 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Normandy
The goal of devout Mormons is to serve and worship God — quite the opposite of what Satan does. Normandy
If satan can get a person to try and work their way to worthiness, satan has succeeded, even as the person appears outwardly to be living what you would deem a 'righteous life'. 'After all that you can do' is violation of the principle Jesus enumerated as God's Grace. Momronism is based on working one's way to worthiness. THAT is anathema to the Gift of Salvation, for 'while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.' Jesus didn't wait for you to earn a gift, for then it is no more a gift but earned wages! After you are Saved and your life is hid with Christ, you have--not will have--HAVE the gift of God's Holy Spirit indwelling your human spirit, so that the life you live subsequent to trusting Jesus as Redeemer is a glory to His presence not something for you to brag on. Working your way to worthiness is an offense to God's Grace in Christ Jesus. I can repeat that over and over, like Paul did to so many of the folks he touched with his evangelism, but ubtil you open your heart to God's Spirit, to make that Truth real in your own sin nature, you will be fed all manner of false teaching and twisting of the scripture to prevetn you from seeing that oh so simple and perfect plan of Slavation God has devised for those who will ...

The goal of Latter-day Saints is to follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ, which is certainly not the same as following the devil.Normandy
Norm, God wants you to FIRST stop striving to follow and always being tripped up by the evil one. God's plan for your Salvation is to trust in the Lord your God and lean not to your own understanding. When you do that, you can be Saved right then, not at some ephemeral trainstation stop in the future to get onboard the train to Heaven. God wants to restore to your spirit inherited from Adam, the LIFE of God which went out of Adam's spirit in Eden. when you stop striving and let Him be your Savior, His Life will be restored in your human spirit as the earnest of the inheritance which awaits you according to His promises not your works to earn His Grace.

I love my son because he is my son, not because he has earned my love. You stop striving and trust Jesus to be at that instant your Redeemer, and you will be from that moment onward a son of the Most High God, by His promise, not by your works. THAT phenomenal occurance is what Jesus called being born again by the Spirit when he spoke with Nicodemus as recorded in John Chapter three. Regardless of how you interpret the fact that Jesus siad born of water AND of the Spirit, you must see that Jesus taught Nic that at that moment a man is born again into the family of God, not at some far point at the end of a life lived striving to be worhty of God's mercy.

My son is now over forty and I love him with much more depth than I did when he was a beautiful little suntanned toddler with his bahboe in his mouth. He didn't have to earn my love, but his life has certainly earned my respect and admiration for the man he has grown into.

67 posted on 11/06/2010 11:35:32 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

Jesus consistently taught people to abandon sin, to live lives of charity and righteousness and to follow his teachings and sayings.

Matthew 7:

“24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. “

According to Jesus it is very important not only to hear his sayings (Jesus had just given the sermon on the mount), but to do them.

I don’t believe for a moment that people who take Jesus at his word and try to follow his teachings are being tricked into following the devil.

Remember what James says, faith without works is dead.

Regards,

Normandy


68 posted on 11/06/2010 11:57:24 AM PDT by Normandy
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To: Normandy
If that's the best you can do, and that fluff suits you, then God has much more to say unto you.

First, can works generate faith, or do works evidence the presence of faith? ... Before you put both feet in your mouth to spew some fable of Mormonism, the Bible answers that very clearly. I would advise you to dig for it but I am convinced that Mormonism has so blinded your mind that you would not see it if you stumbled across it, so I'll enumerate.

Look carefully at the story of Abraham taking Isaac up on the mountain for the ritual of sacrifice that God had commanded Abraham to carry out. Before Abraham set foot up the mountain, he gave them/us a clue to those who were told to wait while he went up the mountain.

Abraham told the waiters that 'they would return to them after the ritual was completed'. THAT IS THE Working of indwelling faith, for though Abraham had not brought along a sacrifice for the ritual, he believed there would be one, and if it be his son he trusted--faithed, as in the verb faithing--that God would keep His precious promise to make of Abraham descendants more numerous than the grains of sand, through Isaac. Abraham was faithing in the Promises of God without having a time machine to know what or how God would make it so, thus it was counted for him righteousness (Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ). Now this was before the Crucufixion and resurrection.

Read Hebrews and see what the author has to say about the exercising of faith. Faith in Jesus as Savior, Redeemer, THE Deliverer is the substance God values, not your works you trust are done to earn worthiness.

Abraham exhibited faith in God's promises BEFORE he acted out his faith on the mountain, but he did act out his faith, thus his faith was alive not dead without works. The lesson is that faith when it is alive and you are 'faithing' in God's Promises will exhibit acts/works BECAUSE HE indwells your human spirit, not because you're striving to earn His Grace. There are other examples in Hebrews which will help to elucidate this concept. Enjoy

69 posted on 11/06/2010 12:31:36 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Colofornian

It amuses me that while we are having a hard time agreeing on even small matters from the scriptures, some one who does not even seem to understand the smallest of matters are usually the ones who come up with this kind of stuff.

I will admit that i do not know, but i doubt it.


70 posted on 11/06/2010 12:33:00 PM PDT by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: MHGinTN

I think works do proceed from faith, and also that good works strengthen and increase faith.

I also agree with James who said that faith and works are both necessary.


71 posted on 11/06/2010 12:39:17 PM PDT by Normandy
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To: Normandy
The same James from whom Mormons like to quote one verse to support their familiar spirit appeal to test God on the book of Mormon has addressed this works/legalism versus Grace issue and finished the issue in a way that Mormonism does not wish to embrace since it eliminates their/Mormon 'after all that you can do':

Acts 15:13-21 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up (Amos 9:11):
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things (Amos 9:12).

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

This pronouncement was being sent to gentiles. James did not say 'follow the ten commandments and all the law and the prophets or your salvation will be cancelled'. Yet that is precisely what Mormonism teaches!

'Abstain from pollution of idols' is an interesting point, because later we find that Paul explains some (himself included) may have eaten food that had been offered to idols, but it didn't cancel his Salvation!

Abstain from fornication was perhaps an admonishment to not have pre-marital sex because such behavior has been frowned upon by God from the beginning, yet even this behavior is not a condition posed by which these gentile Christians would lose their Salvation.

The last two items are how we know this was aimed at trying to not cause contention between Jews converted to Christianity and the gentiles. Paul later addresses the freedom of Christians juxtaposed with the legalism of judaizers (Mormons).

72 posted on 11/06/2010 1:06:08 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: restornu; MHGinTN; Godzilla; Normandy; Saundra Duffy; SZonian; webboy45; TurkeyLurkey; utherdoul; ..
I said FR period not the RF which is also a joke if the very foundation is composed of things that hinder the presents of the Spirit of the Lord in the first place all of this is in vain!

What are you yammerin' about again, Resty?

Are you so desperate to change the focus of this thread that you have first try to focus it on me -- and then some imaginary fantasy language issues?

OK. "Have it your way," to quote a certain commercial. You just brought up that which hinders the "presents" [sic] of the Lord from being here on these threads. I have some pertinent questions for you:

How can the "presents" [sic] of the Mormon gods even be here when...?:

(a) Brigham Young taught: "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so. He is no more every where present in person than the Father and Son are one in person" (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 23-24).

So, apparently you're not talking about one of the Mormon gods who masquerades as the Father-God of Christianity, who is everywhere! 'Cause to reference us back to the article of this thread, #5 cites the prophet Jeremiah: "Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24

(And here Saundra Duffy, not very long ago on a thread, was claiming that Jesus isn't limited in any way...but the Mormon "prophets" limit God's presence???)

But, Resty, you also said "the Spirit of the Lord...so perhaps you were talking about the Holy Spirit. But did not your sixth "prophet," Joseph F. Smith, who wrote D&C 138, say...?:

(b): “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son...” (Joseph F. Smith, 6th Lds “prophet,” Discourses on the Holy Ghost, N.B. Lundwall, ed., p. 53)

So there ya go, Resty. Brigham said the Mormon jesus' literal dad was limited...he keeps up his place @ Kolob. (I'm sure he's not traversing to freeperland very often). And then Joseph F. Smith comes along as the 4th "prophet" later & says, "Nope. The Holy Ghost ain't no more everywhere than the other 2 gods are."

So pray tell, Resty what "presents" [sic] are you talking about?

I'll bet you whoever converted you from Presbyterianism, Resty, never told you about their theological handcuffs that they placed on the omnipresence of the Mormon gods, did they? ('Cause the way you talk about the "presents [sic] of the Spirit of the Lord" almost seems like a throwback vocabulary to your Christian days)

73 posted on 11/06/2010 1:06:08 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Colofornian; SZonian; colorcountry; aMorePerfectUnion; svcw; Tennessee Nana; Godzilla; Elsie
Are you so desperate to change the focus of this thread that you have first try to focus it on me

The desperation shown by the mormons in this thread and in mine, International Appearances of the Resurrected Jesus with their continuous ad hominem attacks and lack of rebuttal is very interesting.

They have NO way to counter the articles that are posted with actual mormon belief and doctrine.

Must suck to be them.

74 posted on 11/06/2010 1:15:15 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: SZonian

Welcome to the family, SZonian; get into a good Bible study, inductively if you can find one in your area, and show yourselve a workman who is not to be ashamed.


75 posted on 11/06/2010 1:21:23 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: SZonian

“yourselve” - yourself


76 posted on 11/06/2010 1:22:52 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: Normandy
Let's take a closer look at the faith and works issue, from two who met the Lord in person after His resurrection.

James 1: 22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [The ‘work’ James speaks of being a doer thereof is faithing in God’s Promise to the Saved, not to those hoping to someday be saved. James is addressing the process of faithing (verb) in the Holy Spirit guide within, Who transforms us during the rest of our life int he flesh. Following is Paul’s address to this same concept of the Saved being transformed by faithing in God. Notice Paul's use of the present tense--actually the present perfect--when explaining this process of faithing in God's transforming presence within the believer.]

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. [Because of His righteousness in you in the presence of His Holy Spirit in your before dead human spirit.] 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

77 posted on 11/06/2010 1:35:06 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Normandy
Please focus upon the specific teaching here:
Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live".

Momronism teaches you to try by your works to put to deatht he misdeeds/theadamic nature, but the Bible teaches you to BY THE Spirit of Him Who dwells in you to put to death the adamic nature. If you could do it, why would Paul and James address this as a Holy Spirit accomplishement for which you cannot take prideful credit?

78 posted on 11/06/2010 1:42:57 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: restornu

Are you being sarcastic?

EVERYONE who is alive on earth today is here because God ordained it.

Believers in Christ have a responsibility to share the truth, i.e., the gospel with the world that is in darkness.
the LDS are in darkness. God will remove each one when it is in His timing, as the number of our days are known and ordained also.

As far as their (the Mormons) leading us, thank the Lord that we still live in a free country where we can vote for our leaders. Christians should consider what these candidates say, do (as a way of life), and vote on, and hold that up to the Word of God to determine how to vote.

For there are moral people who are running for office, to be sure, but there are also Christians, that is, people who are following Christ and not ashamed or afraid to talk about Him. Some of those moral people are Mormon. Some of those moral people are of orthodox denominations, but not necessarily Christians.

We need Christ and the Word of God, which is the wisdom of God, to make all decisions in life, including decisions about for whom to vote.


79 posted on 11/06/2010 1:44:48 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: SZonian; TurkeyLurkey; greyfoxx39; restornu; Stourme; Normandy; newheart; All
This “doctrine” is the primary reason I left the LdS church. Thankfully, with a lot of help from some folks here on FR, I have found the Jesus Christ of the Bible and I am grateful to God for giving me the wisdom to see the error of my ways. July 27, 2010, born again, in Christ.

Great testimony, Brother Szonian...we are together adopted into Jesus' family, just as the apostle Paul said several times.

Your former brethren, Lds, who claim we're all literal spirit children of God, have no way of dealing with...
...Biblical verses about spiritual adoptions...
...or Biblical verses calling the Pharisees sons of the devil (John 8)
...or John 1:12, where John said we have to have authority to BECOME sons of God...
...or even Book of Mormon verses from Mosiah which also says people become sons of God -- that they are not automatically "sons of the pre-existence"...

I agree with Greyfoxx -- it must really suck to try to figure out Mormon doctrine...no wonder the First Presidency is now resorting to telling Mormons at sacrament meetings to stop sending them doctrinal questions -- see Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me

I mean, ya gotta wonder why they chose sacrament meetings to make that announcement.

I mean, didn't they just have a General Conference in Utah beamed world-wide earlier in October? Couldn't they have made the announcement then? And why a Sacrament meeting vs. other meetings held at the local level?

Well...guess what? They weren't counting on Lds journalists like Robert Kirby to blab this information internationally. They didn't want the announcement to go to all Mormons...just the most faithful ones...the ones who would more likely be there for a sacrament meeting.

But, I digress. We praise the Lord for the Holy Spirit moving within you to embrace the true Father and the true Son in a relationship with you: And this is eternal life. That you KNOW the ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (John 17:3)

Are there other Lds who would like to publicly come forward and confess this Jesus as your Lord? Lurkers? Veteran FReepers?

Will you honor the Holy Spirit who has testified within and through Szonian by confessing the One who the Holy Spirit wants to glorify, Jesus Christ, as the ONLY SAVIOR? Joseph Smith in his final months of his life claimed that...

"I am going on in my progress for eternal life. It is not only necessary that you should be baptized for your dead, but you will HAVE TO go through all the ordinances for them, the same as you have gone through TO SAVE YOURSELVES. There will be 144,000 saviors on Mount Zion..." (Book open in front of me on this very keyboard, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1938, p. 366).

Mormon, confess Joseph Smith, and you have "144,000 saviors."
Confess Jesus Christ, and you have the ONE and ONLY Savior...: "Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE Saviour of the world. (John 4:42) "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

Confess Joseph Smith, and the "salvation hoop" Joseph Smith says you have to jump "through" are "all the ordinances...the same as you have gone through TO SAVE YOURSELVES.

Do you really want to be your own savior? Can you really trust yourself for your salvation per Joseph Smith?

Come to the ONLY Savior, the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

80 posted on 11/06/2010 1:48:15 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Normandy

The good works are forordanined and the result of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


81 posted on 11/06/2010 1:48:54 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: MHGinTN

If that’s the best you can do, and that fluff suits you, then God has much more to say unto you.


14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


I believe the above is talking about what we should do instead of what we should not do, in other words Jesus died so our sins would be forgiven us, for those who believe, that has been established.

But we also have to live our life here on this earth, if we can not obey God when he tells us not to do something, how about trying to obey him when he tells us to do something?

A friend of mine commented that he had failed miserably on the first part, but said he was doing better on the second part.

He said that he was badly tempted by women, so the no,s were hard to do for him, but that to give some one something to eat if they were hungry was much easier because he did not have no temptation not to do it, so by doing it he believed that it was works by faith.

The bible says plainly that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but how many times have you ran across some one who you knew were the worst of the sinners that was even more willing to help some one than a more respectable person.

I do not know how to put it all together but i believe we are all different and we do not all have the same if any gifts.

If we are believers God is here with us.


82 posted on 11/06/2010 2:03:20 PM PDT by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: ravenwolf

What James is saying in 2:14 is that if it is a faith without works (works = a lifestyle of obedience to God), it is a DEAD faith—that is, it is not the true faith in Jesus Christ—it is faith in something or someone else, thus DEAD.

He is asking, the kind of faith that says, “I believe,” but has no works—can that faith save? Then he give an illustration, v. 15-16 to show that faith without works doesn’t save any more than it helps to tell a hungry person just to be filled.

In v. 20 he says faith without works (a righteous lifestyle) is useless.

In v. 21 he says that Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac. “Justify” means “to declare righteous,” “to show to be righteous.” In this context it means “to show to be righteous.” In other words, Abraham was SHOWN TO BE Righteous when he offered up Isaac, Gen. 22. He had already been DECLARED righteous in Gen. 15:6, when he believed.


83 posted on 11/06/2010 2:21:18 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: Normandy
 
I also agree with James who said that faith and works are both necessary.
 
Then you disagree with JESUS; Who said they weren't!
 



John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."



BTW; James never said what you claimed he did.

 


84 posted on 11/06/2010 2:26:44 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MHGinTN
James did not say 'follow the ten commandments and all the law and the prophets or your salvation will be cancelled'.

Yet that is precisely what Mormonism teaches!

85 posted on 11/06/2010 2:28:10 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MHGinTN
THIS is precisely what Mormonism teaches!


 
 


 
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith


86 posted on 11/06/2010 2:29:39 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TurkeyLurkey

We understood.

After all; we are fairly fluent in the Restonian language.


87 posted on 11/06/2010 2:32:21 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Would you care to elaborate?


88 posted on 11/06/2010 2:36:15 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: Elsie

...in smaller letters?


89 posted on 11/06/2010 2:37:23 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: Elsie

Just quickly glancing at your large print, #11 is in error.

True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not told that we worship the Almighty according to the dictates of our own conscience—we are to worship Him as He has told us to in His Word. We are to worship Him in truth and in Spirit.

Our worship is composed of continually magnifying His name by living our lives according to His Word in the power of His Holy Spirit. That means we obey His Word, by the grace of God, in the power of His Spirit. For instance we do not practice the things listed in Galatians 5:19-21, but we do practice the things listed in Galations 5:22-24.

When we commit sins (single acts of sin) we confess our sins, and He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). He is our Advocate with the Father and the propitiation for our sins.


90 posted on 11/06/2010 2:48:58 PM PDT by TurkeyLurkey
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To: MHGinTN

[MHGinTN] . You stop striving and trust Jesus to be at that instant your Redeemer,

 

[Stourme]

This doctrine of instant salvation is ridiculous when it's compared to whole of the new testament.

Having the Holy Ghost in you is not an indication of salvation. It's a start. It is not the final event.

What the Lord is teaching is a guiding principle. It's not a simple summation like 1 + 1 = 2. It's a course navigation.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The doctrine of instant salvation ignores all the scriptures that show in quite plain text that there are qualifications for salvation beyond just believing. It's the pattern of God. Noah was not saved from the flood by just believing. Moses didn't lead the Israelites to freedom just by believing. The Israelites weren't cured and healed by just believing.

James himself says:

The first mark of a man made gospel is one that doesn't require constant prayer to our Father in Heaven. They say "believe our interpretation of the Bible because we say so."

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We are saved by the grace of Christ. Christ has put qualifications on who will receive that grace.

Anyone that doesn't teach what James and John taught are teaching false doctrine.

91 posted on 11/06/2010 3:46:46 PM PDT by Stourme ((www.thebayougardener.com - my favorite website))
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To: Stourme
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Stourme, do you really believe by the flesh you can add to what was so precious that it required Jesus to die on a Roman cross and rise again to be brought to fulfillment? Do you really believe the Cross plus? ... Then the Lord rebuke you, because you are trying to squelch the Gospel of Grace and replace it with the works of the flesh as taught by Mormonism.

You asserted: "Having the Holy Ghost in you is not an indication of salvation. It's a start." Stourme, that is satan speaking through you. You have denied the Holy Spirit with that assertion, for you have denigrated His power to be insufficient for your salvation. Do you know the end of one who does that, Stourme. That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Do you not understand what having God's Spirit in you means? Have you no knowledge of the Mercy Seat, the sprinkling of innocent blood, the rending of the veil from top to bottom, the office of the living forever more High Priest, Jesus Christ? Is you need to exalt yourself so great that you will even blaspheme the Holy Spirit to support your ego? ... The Lord rebuke you. May God have mercy upon your darkened spirit.

92 posted on 11/06/2010 4:33:08 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

placemarker


93 posted on 11/06/2010 4:50:26 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Stourme

“We are saved by the grace of Christ. Christ has put qualifications on who will receive that grace.”

Yes, HE came to die for the UNGODLY! Not the “worthy”. Any other supposed qualification comes from cultic heresy. If you
are not UNGODLY, Christ’s death is not for you.

“For while we were still HELPLESS, at the right time Christ died for the UNGODLY.”
(romans 5:6)

“Anyone that doesn’t teach what James and John taught are teaching false doctrine.”

Anyone who distorts what the Bible, as you have in your post, is worthy of condemnation.

ampu


94 posted on 11/06/2010 5:05:50 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Stourme
Revelation 20:12 is a scene of what comes for those who are not previously caught up together with Jesus in the clouds. Have you not read IThessalonians4 and in Corinthians? The dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. These whom Jesus comes to be with Him are not int he scene in Rev 20:12. You really don't want to be in that groupd, Stourme. You're not righteous enough to get a good report.

IThessalonians4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[See Deut 30:4]

95 posted on 11/06/2010 5:39:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

[MHGinTN]

Revelation 20:12 is a scene of what comes for those who are not previously caught up together with Jesus in the clouds. Have you not read IThessalonians4 and in Corinthians? The dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. These whom Jesus comes to be with Him are not int he scene in Rev 20:12. You really don't want to be in that groupd, Stourme. You're not righteous enough to get a good report.

[Stourme]

Since when did you become Jesus? I know you pronunce yourself saved...do you now think you have the power to judge others too? Wow some ego ya got there.

I guess I understand what James said now:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Your assessment of Rev 20 is wrong. John is using symbology to show that all men will be judged. The first resurrection will happen when Christ returns. The second some time after and then the third. But all men, good or evil will stand before Christ. Rev 20 refers to the final judgement. This happens a thousand years after the return of Christ. Dying at sea has no significance other than to show that no one will be forgotten in the resurrection and the judgement.

Since you tried to change the subject... let me restate my point...

The first mark of a man made gospel is one that doesn't require constant prayer to our Father in Heaven. They say "believe our interpretation of the Bible because we say so."

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We are saved by the grace of Christ. Christ has put qualifications on who will receive that grace.

Anyone that doesn't teach what James and John taught are teaching false doctrine.

James says that if we don't have works our faith is dead, works are as necessary to be judged as having faith at the final judgement. It's hard hearted people that know this, but refuse to accept it by choice. Only the humble will receive the grace of Christ.

96 posted on 11/06/2010 6:25:09 PM PDT by Stourme ((www.thebayougardener.com - my favorite website))
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To: Stourme
The Lord rebuke you. I am instructed to judge according to your words. Didn't you know? But I cannot and will not declare your final destiny, for that is in God's providence. But know this, Stourme, if you persist in blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the Bible is VERY clear as to the destiny of such an one.

You might also like to consult with restornu if and when she looks up what strawman and red herring mean. You seem to have the same disease:

"Since when did you become Jesus? I know you pronunce yourself saved...do you now think you have the power to judge others too? Wow some ego ya got there."Stourme

I am saved because I believe the Promises of The Almighty, not because of works which I have done or will do. You would do well to try it, believe God's Promise of the Grace of God in Christ Jesus. Today is the day and this is the hour. God will not always strive with you to reach you. If you feel there is some condemnation, it is not MHG who is in your heart sending that message. Guess Who loves you, Stourme; He wants you to be saved this hour, not work to earn that which you can never achieve.

97 posted on 11/06/2010 6:37:16 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Stourme
"Only the humble will receive the grace of Christ."Stourme ... There, that's more New Testament with the will marked out.

BTW, Stourme, when you have done all that you can do--like this hour you have to have achieved it, because you know not what the next minute or hour or day brings--will you offer that to God as Cain did, expecting to be acceptable on your merit?

Do you think God winks now at your pride of self, your clever turn of phrase, or your twisting of His Word to suit your cult's teaching? Do you even comprehend what Grace is? ... That's why I say you can't gain a good enough report, Stourme. The righteousness of God is His minimal requirement to enter into His presence, and only Jesus has achieved that because His seed remained within Him, His Holy Spirit.

As I believe the promises of God and am faithing in His integrity, I have in very small but sufficient portion That Righteousness of Christ, because my life is hid with Christ and He lives in me. He can and will live in you, if you will stop striving long enough to put your trust in Him and receive His Salvation. Here's a little story to help illustrate the process:

A mother had a little boy who was being a very naughty, unruly, rebellious child. All day long she asked for his assistance which he would not give. She asked him to help her sort the clothes for washing. She asked him to help clear the breakfast dishes. She asked him to carry the trash out to the rubbish bin. She asked him to pick up his cluttered room so she could vacuum it.

Every time this little tyrant said no and stomped away, he would catch a glimpse of how sad he was making his mother. Finally, he relented because of his love for his mother's cooking and story reading which came again to mind when by himself in his room.

The little boy went to his mother and said, "I'm sorry, Mommy. Please forgive me. Don't stop loving me." His mother stopped what she was doing and right then turned to embrace him with love and a warm hug. Then she held him at arms length and declared, "I forgive you sweetheart. I love you. ... Now, you can take out the trash, pick up your cluttered room, and help me sort the laundry from the dryer."


98 posted on 11/06/2010 6:55:57 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Stourme

“James says that if we don’t have works our faith is dead, works are as necessary to be judged as having faith at the final judgement. It’s hard hearted people that know this, but refuse to accept it by choice”

It is amazing you can read a verse and still get it wrong -
or maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.

We are justified by faith alone (made righteous in the eyes
of God by faith). However, James writes that faith, if it
is true faith and not mere mental ascent (like demons
have), will result in good deeds.


99 posted on 11/06/2010 7:05:15 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; All; restornu; DelphiUser; Paragon Defender; Saundra Duffy

[Stourme]“We are saved by the grace of Christ. Christ has put qualifications on who will receive that grace.”

[aMorePerfectUnion] Yes, HE came to die for the UNGODLY! Not the “worthy”. Any other supposed qualification comes from cultic heresy. If you
are not UNGODLY, Christ’s death is not for you.

The premise of this statement is foolish and wrong on many levels. But I doubt any of the so called "christians" will raise up to correct you.

1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Christ came for everyone and invites all men to follow him. There can be NO GODLY people with out the atonement of Christ. Jesus Christ paid the price for sin for all those who would follow Him.

[aMorePerfectUnion] If you are not UNGODLY, Christ’s death is not for you.

Utterly devoid of truth.

Well?? Anyone else want to jump on this bandwagon? Christ's death is not for the ungodly...who else is going to stand up and denounce this?

Well??

100 posted on 11/06/2010 7:17:14 PM PDT by Stourme ((www.thebayougardener.com - my favorite website))
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