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To: John McDonnell
One of the problems with this line of thinking is that it if it is wrong, it is disasterously wrong. That is, if someone believes that the Antichrist cannot be unleashed until the Church is removed, it could lead to someone taking the mark of the beast because one believes that the beast could not exist before the church is removed. But taking the mark leads to drinking "the wrath of God" (Revelation 14:9-10).

Yours is the line of thinking that is disasterously wrong...It will lead people to believe that they can reject Christianity until they see the anti-Christ...

But the scriptures tell us another story...

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If you live to the Tribulation, you will have no chance to accept Jesus Christ as your savior after it starts...

That the tribulation will fall upon Christians is predicted in Revelation 13:7: "And it was given unto him [the beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them..."

Therefore, the saints will gather into areas of safety where they can survive the tribulation and prepare for the return of Christ, Who will confront those supposed to be doing His work on Earth, Who will be in the midst of His people, and Who will receive them into the cloud after the resurrection of the Dead in Him. The rapture is at the end of great tribulations, prior to the destruction of the wicked.

You are contradicting yourself...

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You claim the saints will be hidden away safely but the scripture tells us that the anti-Christ makes war with them and overcomes them...

Then you say that Jesus will be in the midst of those who are waiting for His return...

It's easy to come to your own conclusions about the scripture when you add or subtract from the scriptures...

The fact is; those saints in Rev. 13:7 are not part of the church...The church is in heaven at Rev. 13...Saint does not automatically mean church, any more than baptism means water...

Since the resurrection of the dead in Christ must occur prior to the rapture of living saints, until we see the dead in Christ resurrected, the rapture cannot occur.

You are not going to see anything, unless you have bionic retinas...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Before a living Christian realizes what's going on, he/she'll be half way thru the Milky Way...And then the afterburners will kick in while we pass thru the sea...

Your arguments for a pre-tribulation rapture are wishful thinking with no sound scriptural basis.

That's a silly statement...Why do you suppose millions of 'bible believers' believe in this very thing??? They believe it because it's there in the scriptures...And it's clear if you don't change the words of scripture...

73 posted on 11/12/2010 7:54:28 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
AMEN, Iscool.

The dispensation of the grace of God had a definite beginning, when Paul was saved and given this ministry by direct revelations of the risen Jesus Christ. THis is what Romans through Philemon is all about. The one new man, where there is neither Jew nor Greek, but a NEW creation. It is the Church the Body of Christ, made up of those believers who have accepted the free gift of God as their salvation, by grace through faith. WHen this Body of believers is complete, Christ will return IN THE AIR to gather them to Himself. This whole period, from Paul to the last member of the Body, is called by Paul a MYSTERY, hid in God from the foundation of the world. Eph. 3:2,3,5,6,9. God is reconciling the world unto Himself at this time.

When this dispensation ends, we, "who now letteth will let", the ONE NEW MAN, THE CHURCH THE BODY OF CHRIST, will be taken out of the way (raptured), and the man of sin will then be revealed. 2 Thess. 2:3-12. Notice that verse 7 says "HE" who now letteth..." Notice also that we are called the one new MAN (masculine) and The BODY of CHRIST (masculine).

77 posted on 11/12/2010 8:29:45 AM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: Iscool
Why do you suppose millions of 'bible believers' believe in this very thing???

Why do you suppose millions of "bible believers" don't??

Wait.........don't tell me..........it's because they're not true "bible believers".

"The Rapture" is pure American Bible Belt quackery which is nowhere to be found in the historical scholarly writings of the apostles, Church fathers, saints and doctors.

It is a drug-store, paperback fantasy peddled by modern day hustlers piggybacking onto the half-backed ideas of a nineteenth century Anglo-Irish shlock salesman.

Suckerrrrrzzzzzzzzzz!!!!

81 posted on 11/12/2010 9:14:31 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Iscool
If you live to the Tribulation, you will have no chance to accept Jesus Christ as your savior after it starts...

Revelation 7:13-14: "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

I choose to believe what the scripture teaches and not your emphatic declaration that "If you live to the Tribulation, you will have no chance to accept Jesus Christ as your savior after it starts."

"The fact is; those saints in Rev. 13:7 are not part of the church...The church is in heaven at Rev. 13."

If they are not a part of the church, why does the scripture call them saints? Are your interpretations of higher authority than the word of God? The fact is that since Revelation 13:7 refutes your pre-tribulation theories, you reject what it teaches.

You claim the saints will be hidden away safely but the scripture tells us that the anti-Christ makes war with them and overcomes them...

I did not claim that the saints would be hidden away. I stated that the saints would gather into places of safety, as is taught in Isaiah 4:2-6, Isaiah 33:14-24, and other scriptures. The Antichrist will overcome Christian influence in the areas he controls. But he shall have no power over the saints in areas where they gather for safety. For Christ shall be in the midst of His people. In His presence they shall grow spiritually until they are ready to be raptured into His presence with the resurrected dead in Christ, when the saints shall descend with Him, when He is to reign on Earth for a thousand years!

82 posted on 11/12/2010 9:15:01 AM PST by John McDonnell
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To: Iscool
"That's a silly statement...Why do you suppose millions of 'bible believers' believe in this very thing???"

Why do you suppose a billion plus 'bible believers' don't believe intheis very thing?

92 posted on 11/12/2010 11:31:42 AM PST by Natural Law (lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi)
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To: Iscool

What translation are you quoting from? That will explain the difference.

BTW, I am not misquoting. My quote is linked to an online source.


101 posted on 11/12/2010 9:24:13 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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