Posted on 11/11/2010 3:35:15 PM PST by wmfights
Does the Rapture mark the beginning of the Tribulation? No, the Bible does not state anywhere that the Tribulation begins with the Rapture. I believe the Rapture could occur months or even years before the Tribulation begins, although it is likely to occur near the beginning because the Tribulation is the time of the pouring out of God's wrath, and 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says that Jesus will "deliver" His Church "from the wrath to come."
Another reason for believing the Rapture is likely to occur near the beginning of the Tribulation is because 2 Thessalonians 2 says that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until a "restrainer" is "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7). I believe that restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the Church. Thus, when the Church is removed, the Antichrist will be unleashed, and the Tribulation will begin.
The prophet Daniel indicates that the starting point of the Tribulation will be a "covenant" that the Antichrist will arrange for Israel that will evidently guarantee the nation's peace and enable the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).
(Excerpt) Read more at rapturealert.com ...
Why do you suppose millions of "bible believers" don't??
Wait.........don't tell me..........it's because they're not true "bible believers".
"The Rapture" is pure American Bible Belt quackery which is nowhere to be found in the historical scholarly writings of the apostles, Church fathers, saints and doctors.
It is a drug-store, paperback fantasy peddled by modern day hustlers piggybacking onto the half-backed ideas of a nineteenth century Anglo-Irish shlock salesman.
Suckerrrrrzzzzzzzzzz!!!!
Revelation 7:13-14: "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
I choose to believe what the scripture teaches and not your emphatic declaration that "If you live to the Tribulation, you will have no chance to accept Jesus Christ as your savior after it starts."
"The fact is; those saints in Rev. 13:7 are not part of the church...The church is in heaven at Rev. 13."
If they are not a part of the church, why does the scripture call them saints? Are your interpretations of higher authority than the word of God? The fact is that since Revelation 13:7 refutes your pre-tribulation theories, you reject what it teaches.
You claim the saints will be hidden away safely but the scripture tells us that the anti-Christ makes war with them and overcomes them...
I did not claim that the saints would be hidden away. I stated that the saints would gather into places of safety, as is taught in Isaiah 4:2-6, Isaiah 33:14-24, and other scriptures. The Antichrist will overcome Christian influence in the areas he controls. But he shall have no power over the saints in areas where they gather for safety. For Christ shall be in the midst of His people. In His presence they shall grow spiritually until they are ready to be raptured into His presence with the resurrected dead in Christ, when the saints shall descend with Him, when He is to reign on Earth for a thousand years!
The tribulation already occurred around 70 AD. Sorry you guys missed out.
Well there's your mistake right there...Calling your religious fathers, saints and doctors scholarly...
They are only scholarly when they align with the scriptures...And your guys fail in every area...
Wait.........don't tell me..........it's because they're not true "bible believers".
I'm sure your definition of a bible believer and mine are two different things...
I'll post the scripture again...
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
IF you refused the grace of God before the tribulation starts, God will will send you strong delusion so that you will not accept Him after the Tribulation starts...And you will be damned...Take it or leave it...
If they are not a part of the church, why does the scripture call them saints?
Oh come on...The OT is full of saints and there's not a Christian among them...All Christians are saints...All saints are not Christians...
How is this for a definition of a bible believer:
Somebody who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture and favors authoritative and long-standing interpretation over non-authoritative and recent exegesis. In general, the Apostles and their immediate successors should be considered the most authoritative.
There is no literal description of the rapture in the Bible. The rapture exegesis of Nineteenth Century Irish immigrant John Darby conflicts with ALL previously known interpretation, including that of the Fathers and Doctors.
An answer that was as good as your screen name sounds right about now - nicely done!
That's where we disagree...I see a bible believer as someone who believes what the scriptures actually say, not some private interpretation by a council, a religion, or a pope...A bible believer is one who does not add to scripture or take away from it...
There is no literal description of the rapture in the Bible. The rapture exegesis of Nineteenth Century Irish immigrant John Darby conflicts with ALL previously known interpretation, including that of the Fathers and Doctors.
Well of course there is...Otherwise, you couldn't find so many people who believe it...And of course the Apostles believed it because they wrote about it...
There is no literal description of the rapture in the Bible.
Well of course there is
Where do the scriptures actually say the Darbyist rapture will occur?
Unfortunately for the majority Christians the 'rapture' doctrine is fully described in Ezekiel 13 in particular verses 17-23. Note what God says He will do in IIThessalonians 2:9-13
You take 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 to mean that everyone living during the great tribulation "received not the love of the truth that they might be saved". It does not teach that, nor are you in a position to judge who should be damned.
Why do you suppose a billion plus 'bible believers' don't believe intheis very thing?
A couple of people yes, be a whole population of believers to vanish at the end of days is not prophesied in the OT. That is a NT concept.
Perhaps this implies that there are two resurrections just as there are two births and two deaths. They don't all happen at the same time.
Actually there is! Before the Law of Moses was the seven Laws of Noah, which applies to all men. Genesis 9
The seven laws
1.Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God. (Including the man from Nazareth)
2.Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3.Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4.Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, sodomy, and bestiality.
5.Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6.Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a) (A common practice in pagan cultures)
7.Requirement to have just Laws: Do not punish by these lessons (Establishment of courts)
Those whose practice the seven Laws of Noah are considered righteous Gentiles.
Gentiles have always been able to convert into the Jewish faith. Abraham and his family, Jethro and Ruth are famous converts from the OT.
So, Gentiles either through the seven Laws of Noah or conversion have always had access to G-ds grace and forgiveness. There is no need for a new gospel. The orginal gospel is just fine.
I personally believe the NT because I am convinced the Holy Spirit has led me to do so...
And the Mormons believe the book of Mormon because of the "burning in the bosom" and the witness of the holy spirit. Islamists believe in the guiding force of the Holy Spirit. So, each offshoot of Judaism has its own "witness" of the holy spirit to their truth.
Not so in Judaism. The witness of Judaism was the event at Sinai. The only religion to ever have a National Revelation. G-d himself spoke and the entire nation heard. Not an angel speaking to a boy in New York, not an apostle having a seizure on the way to Damascus or Angelic revelation to a blood thirsty Arab madman.
That is because you rejected the Messiah the first time around and the Lord put blinders on you guys, temporarily, to lead you to jealousy...
Naaah, not blinders....it is that Torah tells us A) Human Sacrifice is forbidden B)Vicarious Human Atonement is forbidden C) G-d is not a man D) When The Messiah comes, he will perform ALL the messianic prophecies. Not some, not a "down payment", ALL of them. There is no do over mentioned in the Tanakh (OT). It is the main way that we will be able to tell who is a falso messiah. For us to accept ANY messiah, he can only be crowned King Messiah AFTER he has completed all the messianic tasks.
AS a result, I am not against your religion, but I support it...God isn't done with you guys...
Thats cool...Thanks.
That’s what I thought.
Again, Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
First: I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded...and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Second: 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
Nope...
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The context is those who do not make the Rapture because of their rejection of the Gospel and who then go on into the Tribulation...God will send them strong delusion so that they will never accept Jesus, but be damned...They had their chance...
Because they joined a religion that tells them what to believe...And so they do...
Why do they believe that Mary had an immaculate conception??? Because they are told to believe that...
Why do they believe yours is the one, true church??? Because their religion told them to believe that...They'd certainly never find it in the scriptures; not that they'd look...
This is your interpretation that you want to force upon the scripture. God's wisdom is so far superior to ours, that we have this tendency to force our narrow visions upon fragmented revelations of His purposes.
Satan tempts. God tests. Satan tempts via delusions. God tests via delusions. Satan wants everyone brought into bondage through his delusions. The delusions that God allows do not necessarily condemn to bondage because He always keeps open a way of escape for those who repent of the attitudes that prompted the delusions to be a test.
Therefore, for you to say that God purposely deludes people so that they can be damned by Him cannot be pleasing to Him: "Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:6-9).
I believe that the arrogant tone of your support for the deception known as the pre-tribulation rapture theory is displeasing to God. I pray that you will humble yourself before God and confess that you don't know whereof you speak. Otherwise, the delusion you have fallen for could eventually prompt you and others to take the mark of the beast, since you don't believe that the Antichrist can arise to have a mark to take prior to your falsely supposed pre-tribulation rapture.
Pre-tribulation rapture theory is a delusion that Satan promotes to deceive Christians. God is using that same delusion to test His people, to see whether or not they are open to His holy purposes, which have never included a pre-tribulation rapture.
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