St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

[Salvation]

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

Take a look:

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There are no talking donkeys in the Bible, or mysterious writing appearing on walls, or a staff that turns into a snake. You really know your Bible well.

With the resurrection of Jesus Christ, all such miracles have ceased. We don't need any other miracles. We have the empty cross. Roman Catholics are still looking for what has already been given to those with eyes to see.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." -- Matthew 12:38-40

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I meant to write this on the open forum and mistakenly hit the private message. Sorry.

Ping to 21.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2640303/posts?page=21#21

[wideawake]

Why stop there, DE?

Why not call the Resurrection the "hallucination at the tomb"? Or Paul's vision "the hallucination on the road to Damascus"?

It's the same argument.

[Lee N. Field]

The vision at Guadalupe and the vision at Fatima and the vision at Lourdes are really and truly the hallucination at Guadalupe and the hallucination at Fatima and the hallucination at Lourdes.

I suspect something more sinister than simple hallucination.

[D-fendr]

Thanks for the post. Miracles are so… miraculous!

Video: Basilica of Guadalupe (including the image and altar).: "The most visited Christian shrine in the world. 20 million people a year visit this sanctuary."

More Our Lady of Guadalupe - online videos

[wideawake]

From your perspective it must be extremely sinister indeed: actual miracles of the Lord’s grace happening in everyday life - a flat contradiction to your counterfeit gospel.

[wideawake]

The humble Christians to whom these acts of grace were revealed were not "seeking for a sign" - they were, much to the contrary, surprised by these gratuitous expressions of God's love.

"All such miracles have ceased"

Hardly. His Father is working still.

[topcat54]

Protestants sure seem to have a problem with material spirituality sometimes....

Not really, we just have a propensity for truth. People appearing from the "other side" unannounced doesn't fit the pattern. It would have been nice if Jesus had given us a heads up that he was going to send mom back on these "close encounter" missions every so often starting sometime after the reformation.

[wideawake]

"starting sometime after the reformation"

Like Our Lady of the Snows on Mons Esquilina in 360?

Or Our Lady of Walsingham in 1061?

Or Our Lady of the Rosary in 1208?

Or Our Lady of Mount Carmel in 1255?

You're batting 1.000 today.

[D-fendr]

The strong reactions are actually good signs. Apathy is the true opposite of love.

Other reactions are often indications of being specially drawn. All things in good time.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

To believe that there is a need for supernatural sitings of a dead woman who is most likely in heaven spending 100% of her time glorifying God is truly to question the completed work of Christ on the cross.

No small error.

[wideawake]

You're the one talking about "needing"and "seeking."

Mary, who is very much alive - her Son was not lying when He promised that those who believe in Him will live forever - glorifies God as He sees fit.

Visiting the children adopted by the Father into His family certainly glorifies Him.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Why stop there, DE? Why not call the Resurrection the "hallucination at the tomb"? Or Paul's vision "the hallucination on the road to Damascus"?

Because I and millions of Christians can tell the difference between the pivotal moment in all of history at Calvary and the very reason for our existence from the sad delirium suffered by children, fools or charlatans.

It's the same argument.

It's the difference between salvation and superstition.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Visiting the children adopted by the Father into His family certainly glorifies Him.

We are not told to look for visits from formerly breathing human beings who, most likely, are now in heaven.

You have the words of Jesus Christ Himself admonishing those who look for a sign other than the resurrection.

And still Roman Catholics cling to these hallucinations as if they actually meant something other than human error.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

People appearing from the "other side" unannounced doesn't fit the pattern. It would have been nice if Jesus had given us a heads up that he was going to send mom back on these "close encounter" missions every so often starting sometime after the reformation.

lol. "After the Reformation." I hadn't thought of that.

The counter-Reformation was full of coincidences.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I suspect something more sinister than simple hallucination.

You're probably right. 8~)

[narses]

topcat54 asks:

Why is it that there are no parlor trick “miracles” like this recorded in the Bible, yet they seem to be the mainstay of the RCC?

[narses]

“And still Roman Catholics cling to these hallucinations as if they actually meant something other than human error. “

More humor from the Pauline centric cultists at the fringe OPC eh “Doctor”?

[narses]

Because I and millions of Christians can tell the difference between the pivotal moment in all of history at Calvary and the very reason for our existence from the sad delirium suffered by children, fools or charlatans

ROTFLMAO! "Doc" you are a HOOT!

[lastchance]

A rather detailed hallucination. Did you know what it meant to the Aztecs? I’m thinking not. Details from the image.

1. THE LADY STOOD IN FRONT OF THE SUN .She was greater than the dreaded Huitzilopochtli, their sun-god of war.

2. HER FOOT RESTED ON THE CRESCENT MOON She had clearly crushed Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent moon-god

3. THE STARS STREWN ACROSS THE MANTLE She was greater than the stars of heaven which they worshipped. She was a virgin and the Queen of the heavens for Virgo rests over her womb and the northern crown upon her head. She appeared on December 12, 1531 and the stars that she wore are the constellations of the stars that appeared in the sky that day!

4. THE BLUE GREEN HUE OF HER MANTLE She was a Queen because she wears the color of royalty.

5. THE BLACK CROSS ON THE BROOCH AT HER NECK Her God was that of the Spanish Missionaries, Jesus Christ her son
who died on the cross for all mankind.

6. THE BLACK BELT She was with child because she wore the Aztec Maternity Belt.

7. THE FOUR PETAL FLOWER OVER THE WOMB She was the Mother of God because the flower was a special symbol of life, movement and deity-the center of the universe.

8. HER HANDS ARE JOINED IN PRAYER She was not God but clearly there was one greater than Her and she pointed her finger to the cross on her brooch.

9. THE DESIGN ON HER ROSE COLORED GARMENT She is the Queen of the Earth because she is wearing a contour map
of Mexico telling the Indians exactly where the apparition took place.

All this from the imagination of a simple peasant. Were the roses only in his mind as well?