The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[MarkBsnr]

“I was wondering,” he said, “When are you going to pay me that last penny you owe me?”

Ooohhhhh....

[MarkBsnr]

Based on past posting history.....

Anyone looking for a pound of flesh, again?

A lessening of support for antiChristian postings would suffice.

[presently no screen name]

Are you saying these words ... a pound of flesh... is anti-Christian? You never said them?

[MarkBsnr]

Are you saying these words ... a pound of flesh... is anti-Christian? You never said them?

I merely said what I thought would suffice in this conversation. Perhaps a rereading of the recent conversation might be in order.

[HossB86]

metmom did; they just staff Washington offices. And they support abortion.

That must really sting.

Hoss

[presently no screen name]

what I thought would suffice in this conversation.

Catholic CONTROL strikes again!

[MarkBsnr]

That must really sting.

Not really. I asked for Catholic staffers of Planned Parenthood or Catholics who provide abortions. I haven't found any yet.

[MarkBsnr]

what I thought would suffice in this conversation. Catholic CONTROL strikes again!

Interesting tactic - getting me to answer a question that was very different to my original post, and with me saying that what I thought would suffice in terms of the conversation, you accuse me of Catholic control.

So, when I tell you that something suffices for me, that is considered Catholic control? Fascinating mindset.

[presently no screen name]

that was very different to my original post,

Anyone looking for a pound of flesh, again? ....

And your post to me was.. A lessening of support for antiChristian postings would suffice.

Don't confuse the issue, Mark by more CONTROL over what was said and not said.

And you didn't answer the question, did you ever say those words you claim as anti Christian?

[daniel1212]

"Why are you changing the yardsticks? I referred to Protestants."

I am not aware of the history behind your statement, but i assumed you are contesting the conservative evangelical faith which opposes you, not some liberal Prots which have forsaken certain core historic Protestant distinctives, as if such must defend everything by that name, or defend one church, as you must. But if are simply shooting at Protestantism in general, then i myself affirm such liberal Prots are wrong, yet those that are rarely cause Rome a problem, as they are in decline, being institutionalized like Rome, and not being the recipient of convert from Rome.

"Can you show me a priest or deacon of the Church that either provides abortions, or guides people into having them? Perhaps a survey of Planned Parenthood staff may be just the thing to settle this."

If a Catholic priest views allowing abortion in some cases, as some do, then it is likely they might sanction one getting one.

As for a survey, that would be useful, but i have never seen one, but they have Catholic supporters, including “progressive" Catholic Nuns (scroll). But while you apparently broadbrush those who oppose you here, Protestantism, the problem is who is accepted as a Catholic? If you narrow it down to only those who affirm all the official teachings of Rome then you have a much smaller membership, and if so, then Rome is negligent in disciplining heretics and immoral Ted Kennedy types, whose acceptable status as a Catholic, without any evidence of repentance, they honored with grand funerals and words, though some of the laity showed more courage. . Which infers to the rest that dying in the arms of Rome ensures it will see such to glory.

And if we go by what Rome effectually conveys, which Biblically shows what you really believe, (Ja. 2:18) then there are many Catholics who support abortion.

The faith which you impugn here is not that of liberal Protestantism, and below are many stats which evidences the overall fruit of different faiths, from many different surveys. Abortion is in red. (see sources here).

Evangelicals versus Catholics, from various formal studies, spanning 1992 to 2009 (see sources here). 73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28% 64% of those in Assemblies of God churches (versus only 9% of Catholics) strongly DISAGREE that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven [salvation on the basis of merit]. 56% of Assemblies of God (versus 17% Catholics) Christians strongly DISAGREE that Satan is just a symbol of evil [rather than a real being]. Catholics and Mainline Protestants tend towards more belief in a more Distant God. Evangelical Protestants and Black Protestants tend towards belief in a more Authoritarian God. Among 7,441 Protestant pastors. Asked if they believed that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God: 87% of Methodists said no. 95% of Episcopalians said no. 82% of Presbyterians said NO. 67% of American Baptists said no Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%. Donating Money (during the last month): Church of Christ churches were the highest at 29%, with Catholics being the lowest at 12% American evangelicals gave four times as much, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001. 88 percent of evangelicals and 73 percent of all Protestants donated to churches. By denomination, 61% of the those associated with an Assemblies of God church said they had shared their faith at least once during the past year, followed by 61% of those who attend a Pentecostal/Foursquare church, and ending 14% among Episcopalians and just 10% among Roman Catholics 25% of Evangelical Christians read the Bible on a daily basis along with 20% of other Protestants. Just 7% of Catholics do the same. At the other extreme, 44% of Catholics rarely or never read the Bible along with only 7% of Evangelical Christians and 13% of other Protestants. 91% of Evangelical Christians and 63% of other Protestants and 25% of Catholics consider themselves to be born again, 44% of Evangelical Christians reflect at least daily on the meaning of Scripture in their lives. 36% of other Protestants and 22% of Catholics do the same. 52% of Evangelical Christians have had a meaningful discussion about their faith with a non-Christian during the past month. 28% of other Protestants and 18% of Catholics also have held such a discussion. 68% of Evangelical Christians attend a regular Bible Study or participate in some other small-group activity. 47% of other Protestants take part in small groups related to their faith, along with 24% of Catholics. 39 percent of Catholics affirmed not attending church is a sin, versus 23 percent of Protestants. Weekly Church attendance: Evangelicals showed the highest participation of approx 60 percent (30% more than once a week). Catholics were at 45 percent (9% more than once a week), and Jews 15 percent. The highest percentage of those who strongly agree they have a personal responsibility to share their faith was found among believers in Pentecostal/Foursquare churches (73%) 81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians. 54% of Hispanic Catholics describe themselves as charismatic Christians. 51%of Hispanic Evangelicals are converts, and 43% are former Catholics. 82% of Hispanics cite the desire for a more direct, personal experience with God as the main reason for adopting a new faith. Among those who have become evangelicals, 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion. Negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion. Latino Evangelicals are 50% more likely than those who are Catholics to identify with the Republican Party, and are significantly more conservative than Catholics on social issues, foreign policy issues and even in their attitudes toward the plight of the poor. 40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C.: Abortion: 24% R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46% Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force." Only 33% of Catholics strongly affirmed that Christ was sinless on earth 88% of Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good Catholics. 70 % of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus [it is, of His death], indicating they do not believe it is Jesus actual body and blood Only 30% of Catholics said believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

26 percent of Catholics polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivoval position on abortion Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. 46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong. 31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases. 73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control. Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained. 59% of all Catholic women of childbearing age practice contraception—a rate of usage statistically equivalent to that of the general population (60%). 66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church. 80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic. 77 % of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing. 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. 71 percent responded that it always was wrong for a woman to get an abortion, 19 percent that it often was, and 4 percent seldom/never. 28 percent judged that is always was sin for married couples to use artificial birth control, 25 percent often, 40 percent never. 49 percent affirmed that it was always a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, often, 25 percent; and never, 19 percent. To take one's own life if suffering from a debilitating disease: always, 59 percent; often, 18 percent; never, 17 percent. 15 percent of the current clergy listed themselves as "gay or on the homosexual side." Among younger priests 23 percent did so. 44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order 50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. 39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist Americans affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful. 79 percent of American Jews, 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality, versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S. Evangelical Churches (17%), had the lowest percentage of souls aged 18-29, versus Unaffiliated (31%), Muslims (29%), Historically Black Churches (24%), Mormons (24%) and Other Faiths (24%). Mainline Churches had the greater percentage (23%) of souls 65 and older. 2% of Mainline Churches, 77% of Catholics and 53% of Evangelical Churches affirmed, "There is MORE than one true way to interpret the teachings of my religion." 50% of Evangelicals considered themselves Republican or leaned toward that party, 34% Democratic or leaned thereto; 9% Independents. 48% of Catholics considered themselves Democrats or leaned toward that party, 33% Republican or leaned thereto; 10% Independent. Based upon exit polling, 74 percent of Evangelicals voted for McCain in 2008, with 25 percent for Obama. (Another measure put the percentage of evangelicals at 23 percent, with 73 percent voting for McCain, 26 percent for Obama.) Catholics overall supported Obama over McCain by a nine-point margin (54% vs. 45%) 37% of Catholics were registered as Democrats, 27% Republican, and 31% as Independents. 77 percent of Black Protestants said they vote Democratic, whether they attended weekly services or not. The 16 most Catholic states contain 24 of the most liberal cities. Excluding (Maryland 26th), predominately Roman Catholic states contain all but one (Seattle WA) of the 30 most liberal cities. Of states in which S. Baptists are the single largest denomination none (of the 30 cities) were found (the term “liberal: being defined according to individual contributions to PACs, election returns and the number of homosexual households: (See HERE for Table of casual Religio-Political relations. And HERE for Correlation between faith, ideology, politics, environment, money.)

[Quix]

Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants.

---

That’s a disturbing figure.

I assume it relates to the birth control issue . . . that in the ‘heat of the moment,’ and with some nod to RC teaching on birth control, birth control is not considered or ignored. Then later . . . reality sets in . . . and an innocent child dies. Sad. Very sad.

Will be interesting to see the rationalizations and weasel words about that. Of course, it will be blamed on

RCINO’s ‘only’ . . . I’d guess.

I wonder . . . Do RC’s consider birth control

less a sin than infanticide?

a sin equal to infanticide?

or

a worse sin than infanticide?

Perhaps

Salvation;

can inform us on that score.

[goat granny]

I did not answer you in a religious tone, but a reply based on human physiology, no need to yell at me about religious differences...

If, as you say your quite aware of that being your wife is a nurse, your remark that I answered to did not show your knowledge.

[Quix]

Only 30% of Catholics said believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

Yet again we have a factoid which eats away very corrosively at the much vaunted 1.2 billion figure for Roman Catholics. . . . which, if my feeble calculator and math skills are accurate . . . would equal 360 million RC's.

It would be interesting to see how they slip and slide, rationalize and weasel word around that one, too.

[HossB86]

I think her point wasn’t about abortion clinic staffers... she was talking about the Kennedy’s, Schumer’s, Pelosi’s, etc.

If those folks didn’t support it so vehemently, it would easier to treat it for what it is...murder. But oddly, many Roman Catholic senators and representatives go against their “church” (much less faith) to support this travesty.

They are Roman Catholic, are they not? The Roman Catholic Church has not excommunicated them, has it? I ask sincerely, because I don’t know. But if it hasn’t... then why are they still communicants?

Had we less of this, there would be no abortion clinic staffers to quibble over.

Hoss

[Quix]

Wasn’t yelling at you at all.

My emphases is merely my expressive emphases regarding the information content. Nothing personal at all.

I understood that my post you were responding to did not indicate my understanding that broken hymens did not necessarily have anything to do with virginity.

I do find it interesting that the whole absurd issue of whether Christ did or did not exit Mary miraculously without breaking her hymen seems to be avoided at the moment. I’d avoid it, too, were I an RC. It’s UNBiblical superstition akin to the most pagan of superstitions.

Like virtually all the Maryolatry hogwash.

[Quix]

Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%.

---

I love how Pentecostals persistently shine as DOING THE STUFF as John Wimber often said. . . . doing the stuff The Bible says we should be doing as Christians. And Praise God that the AoG again measured up above others. Good on em.

I think many RC’s do many good works. However, for their percentages to be so relatively low . . . says something about the vaunted claims so many RC’s make hereon about how super sanctified, super holy, super Christian, exclusively this and exclusively that the Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology And Reality Mangling purportedly is . . .

of course, that’s based on UNHistorical rubberized false pseudo history CLAIMS by the cliques of political bureaucratic power mongering magicsterical types 300+ years after the facts and after the true historical events.

[MarkBsnr]

that was very different to my original post, Anyone looking for a pound of flesh, again? ....

And your post to me was.. A lessening of support for antiChristian postings would suffice.

Don't confuse the issue, Mark by more CONTROL over what was said and not said.

And you didn't answer the question, did you ever say those words you claim as anti Christian?

I didn't claim those words as antiChristian. Why are you saying this?

[MarkBsnr]

Why are you changing the yardsticks? I referred to Protestants."

I am not aware of the history behind your statement, but i assumed you are contesting the conservative evangelical faith which opposes you, not some liberal Prots which have forsaken certain core historic Protestant distinctives, as if such must defend everything by that name, or defend one church, as you must. But if are simply shooting at Protestantism in general, then i myself affirm such liberal Prots are wrong, yet those that are rarely cause Rome a problem, as they are in decline, being institutionalized like Rome, and not being the recipient of convert from Rome.

I used the term Protestant to describe PP staffers in general. Now are they all Protestant? No, there are liberal Jews as well. My point is that Catholics don't staff PP, certainly as a rule. A further point is that I don't know of ANY who do. If you can find some, I'd be grateful for the knowledge.

Can you show me a priest or deacon of the Church that either provides abortions, or guides people into having them? Perhaps a survey of Planned Parenthood staff may be just the thing to settle this."

If a Catholic priest views allowing abortion in some cases, as some do, then it is likely they might sanction one getting one.

Do you have any examples? And do you believe these statistics offered on peacebyjesus.com? If so, where are their bona fides?

[goat granny]

I have read of many freepers being chastised for using cap. as it denote yelling. But if your caps do not denote yelling I will believe you.

PS giving birth the natural way would have no bearing on weather Mary was a virgin or not, since she was a mother via an act of God. To remain a virgin while giving birth is not so hard to believe as she did not have intercourse during the birth. Therefore she remained a virgin before birth and during birth and after birth. What went on during her life with Joseph is none of my concern..

[Quix]

81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of [Roman] Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians.

Ohhhhhhhh, DOOOODNESS!

The White Hankys are SLIPPING . . . AGAIN!

Ahhh well, they were slightly a little around the edges saved from the dregs position this slot by the Episcopalians. Impressive!

They don't believe GOD'S WORD, THE UNRUBBERIZED BIBLE.

They just believe superstitious old wive's tales about Mary's god-like powers and offices concocted by the magicsterical power-mongers buttressing their feifdoms on Mary's lap.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo impressive!

What an ecclesiastical pile of farce.

What a corrupt edifice of deception.

What a stench.