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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: Lera
Where you not the one who mentioned they were charged with dealing with the reformation ?

If their objective was to deal with the reformers what better way that to teach people to hate them ?

The Jesuits have been accused of teaching Hitler to persecute the Reformers. The Catholic Church suffered far more under the Nazis than the compliant Protestant churches in Germany and in the conquered langs of WWII. Where is the accusation now?

2,341 posted on 01/31/2011 5:42:33 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD
The Latin Bible authorized by the Church is fully acceptable to me.

"Fully acceptable" does not mean that you believe the scriptures to be infallible. In fact, it sounds like a very half hearted response. If my wife got all dressed up and asked me how she looked and I said that she was "fully acceptable", I'm sure she'd slug me.

Your wife is not God. I hope however that you do not tell mine that in person and I will not tell yours that either.

I mean that Scriptures are only meaningful with the interpretation of the Church. The case of the Eunuch is most telling.

You stated in post 2093 the scriptures are not infallible or inerrant. The Church states they are. Would any decree coming from Rome be unacceptable? You are endangering your own soul and in peril of being anathematized.

Negative. I stated that they were not infallible. And I will say that just like the Eunuch, without the Church to interpret, it is as meaningless to anyone as it was to him.

I'm really not trying to put you on the spot. I'm simply pointing out that Catholics really no longer believe the scriptures to be infallible and inerrant. They do not follow the teachings of the early fathers. You are not the first that I've brought up the infallibility of the scriptures to, but you're at least reflective enough to answer this rather interesting question. Most Catholics just clam up. This is an illustration of how one of many doctrines of the Church has changed over the last 500 years.

Scriptures cannot be infallible. Their interpretation can be and is under the Church as Scripture itself illustrates. Do you realize that every major heresy of the first millennium can be defended directly from Scripture - admittedly snippets, but so are many current beliefs.

Catholics should think hard and long about what they actually believe, the inerrant scriptural teachings or someone telling them what to believe.

Even the NT shows the subordination of Jesus to the Father, and without John, almost no indication of the divinity of Jesus - only the status of a super David - the man. Paul did not preach the Trinity in his letters. It is in the Church - who wrote, harmonized, chose and kept publishing and interpreting the Scripture that we must put our trust.

2,342 posted on 01/31/2011 5:51:25 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool
Who is 'we'? If you are referring to yourself, remember that you reject the Church in a great number of your posts.

No, I reject your man made religion

I don't have a religion. I get to follow Jesus.

Jesus put me into His REAL church the second I got saved...

How about you post a photo of your membership card. Are there secret handshakes?

2,343 posted on 01/31/2011 5:54:23 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos
We is given by sad little folks who are enraged that their “church” is made up of just themselves as everyone else thinks it’s for loons.

There are many here whose god is the image in the mirror. They keep it on the hall stand and pat its head for luck when they walk by...

2,344 posted on 01/31/2011 5:55:43 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos; caww
There is no sacred lamb in Egyptian imagery, nor in the egyptian religion

The Ram (Aries) was eventually replaced by a lamb.

2,345 posted on 01/31/2011 5:56:53 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos; caww
My understanding is that sins could be forgiven without shedding of blood, (Lv. 5:11-13) and indeed Jesus forgave sins before He made atonement. (Mt. 2:5) but that such was done under the rubric of the day of atonement, in which both a scapegoat and blood sacrifice was offered, this being commanded, "this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year." (Lv. 16:34)

It is also pointed out that shedding of blood was for sins done in ignorance,which would seem to include being deceived, and without intent to sin, while those who sinned presumptuously, knowingly, willfully by commission or omission, such as Ex. 21:14; Num. 9:13; Dt.17:12; 29:19,20; Josh. 7:21-25, had no atonement, but had to bear their iniquity. (Num. 15:27-31)

This meant facing the consequences, and they were to be utterly (key word) cut off, evidently usually by death, such as the man who blatantly rejected the command to rest on the 7th day sabbath and gathered firewood, and was stoned. (Num. 15:32-35)

Yet terms such as "ignorantly" and "presumptuously" require more, understanding, and we have instances in which enlightened souls who perhaps did knowingly sin (2Sam. 12:13; 1Ki. 21:25-29; Ezra 10) were convicted in heart and able to repent and find mercy, though there were consequences, and in Ezra 10 their conscience appears to have been dulled, and there needs to be judgment in all this.

All this corresponds to the N.T., in which souls are treated as deceived and ignorant before their conversion, (Titus 3:3) and thus the blasphemer and injurious persecutor Saul obtained mercy, because he did it "ignorantly in unbelief." (1Tim. 1:13) 14)

But judgment is according to light, (Lk. 16:48), and so believers are the most accountable, and like as those who would not keep the Passover were cut off, in Hebrews 10:25-39 (cf. Gal. 5:1-4) we are warned that those converts who forsake the (persecuted) Christian fellowship, and go on in impenitent willful sin (including going back into their former faith) have effectively denied and despised the faith, and will be treated as adversaries, for "the Lord shall judge his people."

Ananias and Sapphira are two examples of such accountable souls willfully, knowingly sinning, while Simon, who "believed and was baptized," is implicitly warned of the like in Acts 8:13,18-24 - and gets the message. And John warns about a" sin unto death," (1Jn. 5:16) of which he says "I do not say that he shall pray for it."

Yet in 1Cor. 5:5, a man who is involved in a most blatant sin is delivered over to the devil as a means of restorative chastisement, which worked, and in 1Cor. 11:20-32, believers who hypocritically commemorated the selfless death of Christ by selfishly eating at the love feast while others went hungry - thus effectively failing to recognize other members of the church as part of the body - were also supernaturally chastened unto repentance, though with some dying. And which restorative chastisement is necessary, if they would not be condemned with the rest of the world. (v. 32)

The primitive churches (plural) "walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied, (Ps. 9:31) and believers are to "rejoice with trembling," (Ps. 2:11) as we serve an awe-some and holy God, and so must i seek to better.

2,346 posted on 01/31/2011 6:07:44 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Alamo-Girl
First, we Christians are to follow God Himself - not angels, mortals, organizations, etc.

Very well, but what are you doing? Do you attend a church? Read the Bible? Attend ecumenical meetings? Somewhere there is a leader. Who is that leader and to what are they leading you?

We must try the spirits and never bow to them.

Well good Scotch is good Scotch, I say. But seriously, how do you try the spirits? Is not satan more powerful than any man? It took all that Jesus had to withstand satan, no?

If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.

Are you reducing the condition of love to the fulfillment of whims and making that love condition upon it?

Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does. So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."

Oh boy. Our imitation of Christ involves giving up of ourselves, but we do need to sweat the details. If we worship the Mormon God, for instance, will the Christian God understand that we actually meant well, so please don't hold it against us?

And it would entail wanting to be rid of everything that is an abomination to Him – whether in the world around us or in ourselves.

These include some of the details that we need to sweat. Remember that the Church took 3 centuries to come out with the definition of the Trinity and the Canon. If we reject the Trinity or believe in the Gospel of Thomas, is that small stuff?

And finally, what may be the most difficult for us to want that God wants since it involves suffering and destruction – that Jesus will come in power and glory and put down the rebellion that began with Satan and spread through Adam to mankind and then make all things new according to His will.

I have no idea what you mean here.

2,347 posted on 01/31/2011 6:09:54 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

Yo Dude, I think I see a bit of Jesuit Thinking in your posts.... Loyola U perhaps? or just another proddy seeking the truth?


2,348 posted on 01/31/2011 6:23:38 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Amen


2,349 posted on 01/31/2011 6:32:51 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: Lera
It’s not dangerous at all if you believe this. There is only one God and if you love him and you love your neighbor as yourself you are not going to run around murdering others thinking you are doing his will.

Extremely important and well stated point!

2,350 posted on 01/31/2011 6:33:03 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: investigateworld
Yo Dude, I think I see a bit of Jesuit Thinking in your posts

Interesting. In what fashion?

Loyola U perhaps?

No, me engineer. Me work with things. Me leave non Christian theological premises to certain idiots.

or just another proddy seeking the truth?

I spent some time in my teens and 20s wandering far afield, but I came back to the Church in much the same manner (only spiritually) as the Prodigal Son.

2,351 posted on 01/31/2011 6:34:33 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; Alamo-Girl; count-your-change
"Scriptures cannot be infallible. Their interpretation can be and is under the Church as Scripture itself illustrates.

For clarification, are you saying that the RCC does not hold Scripture to be infallible in its original mss (as do most evangelicals)?

Do you realize that every major heresy of the first millennium can be defended directly from Scripture - admittedly snippets, but so are many current beliefs."

So the abuse of something invalidates its authority, or those who effectively or formally presume a doctrinal authority superior to it, but it validates one who uses it in asserting that it is infallible whenever it speaks in accordance with its infallibly defined criteria? By what means are we to ascertain that Rome is the One True and infallible Church?

2,352 posted on 01/31/2011 6:54:55 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: daniel1212
"Scriptures cannot be infallible. Their interpretation can be and is under the Church as Scripture itself illustrates.

For clarification, are you saying that the RCC does not hold Scripture to be infallible in its original mss (as do most evangelicals)?

For one thing, you do not have the original mss, so the question is really moot. For another thing, printed words cannot be infallible. They may be inerrant, but not infallible. A third point is that the interpretation of these words may be infallible. And they are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit leading the Magisterium of the Church, not Luther's every milkmaid.

So the abuse of something invalidates its authority, or those who effectively or formally presume a doctrinal authority superior to it, but it validates one who uses it in asserting that it is infallible whenever it speaks in accordance with its infallibly defined criteria? By what means are we to ascertain that Rome is the One True and infallible Church?

Why do you guys keep going on about Rome? What is your obsession? The Church was created by Jesus and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That is the authority - from Jesus, not from a self indulgent monk, and not from a power crazed monomaniacal lunatic. Or the absurd and most ridiculous Zwingli. The Church is the Church and it is not headquartered at Rome.

2,353 posted on 01/31/2011 7:08:46 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD

I think you did a brilliant job describing this subject. Thank you.


2,354 posted on 01/31/2011 7:11:37 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: MarkBsnr

You’re going far afield from what I said.

To repeat:

By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?

How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

Is it really that difficult a question?


2,355 posted on 01/31/2011 7:16:53 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

The Church was not persecuting. They did their best to convince them to return to the Faith because the Church was afraid for their very souls. What lengths would you go to to stop another from going over to satan?

2,356 posted on 01/31/2011 7:20:30 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos
Gee, thanks, Cronos for posting those portions of the Confession. It was quite edifying! I especially liked the section that spoke of the purpose of good works in the Christian's life. They most certainly DO have the effect of strengthening my assurance of my redemption for who but the redeemed truly serve God out of love and gratitude instead of fear and dread?
2,357 posted on 01/31/2011 7:29:30 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: HarleyD
Once we see the light we will never want the darkness.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

2,358 posted on 01/31/2011 7:47:24 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: spirited irish
Dostoevsky noted that there are those whose will (Pride of Mind, Flesh, Life) is so terrible as to be satanic. How did Dostoevsky know this to be true? Because he was a self-confessed terrible-willed man, but he sought spiritual remedy through Jesus Christ.

CS Lewis understood this to be the case as well, which is why he said that the gate to Hell will be slammed and locked from the inside.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!

2,359 posted on 01/31/2011 7:49:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr

“Cause you answer questions with another question”.
‘Nuff said?


2,360 posted on 01/31/2011 7:52:49 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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