The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Religion Moderator]

On second look, depending on which phrase I use, that part shows up on a number of different websites.

[Alamo-Girl]

If you're interested: Jewish Encyclopedia on Gehenna

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for those beautiful Scriptures, dear sister in Christ!

[Cronos]

Caww — how come we don’t see any concern for medication for this post?

[Cronos]

Note, Gamecock IS a follower of Calvin, part of the PCA and he posted this

Gamecock:
"This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics."

And this is a reference to the OPC doctrine website where they say they consider Pentecostal/Methodist/Baptist teachings based on Arminianism to be "damnable heresy".

You have Dr E saying "That's Christianity. That's Calvinism

And you tie that in to the links by aruanan above on how the Calvinists believe that Calvinist thought defines Christianity

[Cronos]

Thank you AG for the link and thank you for that definition -- however, the original Indic developers of the Shunya (0) took the Sanskrit word for void, i.e. shunya to describe this

The Jewish concept of gehenna IS quite different from the Christian. Yet the Zoroastrian concept of hell is strangely in between. The PArsis also have the idea of personal and final judgment

[Cronos]

Now, now, Dr. E you were warned for your post #2001 and your post #2168 was pulled

[Alamo-Girl]

Owing to Cronos’ testimony in another sidebar, I am convinced that the “we wrote it” posts I’ve seen around here is neither the Catholic Church doctrine nor attitude concerning Scripture. The reason I keep hammering on the point of giving God the glory for the Scriptures – even while exalting its caretakers as you wish - is that it is no small matter to fail to give God the glory for His own words.

And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

But the word of God grew and multiplied. – Acts 12:21-24

The other matter is in the question you raised:

Is that knowledge or belief that it applies to you?

It is a very common tactic of the spirit of anti-Christ to raise those two words and fabricate an imaginary wall between them when speaking to our youngers in Christ.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. – Colossians 2:8

If he can succeed in building that artificial wall, then he often equates knowledge to sensory perception and reasoning (empiricism) and thereby defines belief apart as neither - whereupon he often quickly equates belief to hypothesis and from there to delusion, e.g. saying that if a person can believe in God he can also believe in pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters and so on.

This is a terrible, terrible insult to the Blood of Christ.

And for that reason I never allow an atheist or agnostic to control the rules of engagement, including the dictionary – and I always begin my reply with my testimony:

God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I’ve known Him for a half century and counting.

I know Him as I know my husband, daughter and brother. I don’t simply “believe” they exist, I know them.

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. – 2 Timothy 1:2

I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. – John 10:14-15

[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. – John 14:17

Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. – John 8:55

I urge you, dear brother in Christ, to not use the “belief v. knowledge” argument anywhere around young Christians. All you will accomplish is setting them up like dominoes in the path of the spirit of anti-Christ because many are not yet ready to debunk the empiricist’s epistemology or withstand the ridicule.

A child’s faith is simple, trusting, and it is both treasured and protected by God.

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. – Matt 18:16

God’s Name is I AM.

[Kolokotronis]

If we can give you 50 from Esphigmenou monastery at Mt. Athos, you’ve got a deal!

[metmom]

Caww — how come we don’t see any concern for medication for this post?

Why do you want to know?

[xzins]

If a man commits murder and never repents, he wasn't saved in the first place.

Thank you, DrE. So few truly understand "the perseverence of the saints".

Why in the world would anyone assume that a serial, rapist murderer was a heart believer in the Good Shepherd in the first place?

"Persevering" means "continuing as saints" not just in their destiny but in their walk. Not continuing (abiding) is a sign they never were with us in the first place.

[MarkBsnr]

The only problem with your position is that this is from the Reformed early Anglican position. Not the Lutheran one.

Apparently you're ignorant of the fact that the 39 Articles are the Anglican confession, which I posted.

Earlier, you tried to make the point that Luther believed in double predestination. My point was that Luther never did. It was brewed in Calvin's cauldron, not Luther's. Early Anglicans drank that brew - including the ones who helped settle the US. Within a century, all that poison started to leave the system, which brings us to the point in the US where there are so few actual Calvinists, finding data on their numbers is increasingly difficult.

[metmom]

What you said.

[MarkBsnr]

I appreciate the history lesson but I find it difficult to see why current American government policy is either Catholic or Protestant seeing that Presidents of both persuasions went to some lengths to keep state craft apart from religious.

You may wish to find out why. The early US had state churches in most of the colonies. But that never stopped the US from having antireligious activities. The 1800s and early to mid 1900s saw extravagent antiCatholicism, for instance. But the point is that the results of whatever policy of the last 30 years the US has pursued, has been to decimate the Catholic population of the Middle East. And we see no evidence of concern. Have you?

Nixon had a Quaker background and Kennedy was Catholic but Viet Nam, for example, was neither A Quaker or Catholic war. So the truth of the below......well, views may vary. I don't do policy analysis's for the U.S. government.

Nixon was a profoundly bigoted and obnoxious individual, doing nothing to show the ideals of the Quakers. Eisenhower got us involved in Vietnam after the French withdrew. It is true that Kennedy sent the first large numbers of soldiers, but held back from full scale war. It was Johnson that escalated it to full on warfare. So I do not consider the Vietnam war to be tagged religiously - it was a reaction to Communist agressions.

But it does have the stamp of approval of Catholic authority and agrees with Catholic authority so would the Vatican web site say something contrary?

It does not have full authority - the stamp is of a local bishop which says that he can find nothing wrong with it. As I said, I find it useful but not completely authoritative. Many of the articles are a century old and the site is a private one, not a Church one.

[Cronos]

Dear Metmom,

It troubles me when people doubt the divinity of Christ. Hence I post quotes from the Bible that show that He is God.

if you need any more, I can post more. There's a lot of proof to convince anyone that Jesus Christ is God.

Regards
Cronos

[Cronos]

Mt. Athos — are non-Orthodox men allowed there? I probably want to get there sometime in the next few years, but right now the only plans outside Poland are to Bulgaria later this year. Athens, was a disappointment for me 4 years ago, it doesn’t quite have any atmosphere — but the islands, wow — they are heaven (and I’m not a beach or sun-n-sand kind of guy).

[Cronos]

What if he repents? As per Lutheran theology (please correct if I'm wrong), he can and will be saved. however, the saved person can also lose his salvation and reject God.

Ezekiel 33 says that both can happen.

Do you agree/disagree with Dr. E's statement in post 2873 Thanks for providing evidence that the liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture.

As a Lutheran, you will of course reject double-predestination, correct? So then what do you make of Dr. Eck's statement For example, (some) Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists do not believe in double-predestination are there any Lutherans that DO believe in double-predestination?

[Cronos]

Mark: Earlier, you tried to make the point that Luther believed in double predestination. My point was that Luther never did. It was brewed in Calvin's cauldron, not Luther's.

Let's ask a lutheran -- xzins, did Luther believe in double-predestination?

I know that The LCMS website confirms that it does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).) and Dr. Eck things that this is evidence that the liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture.

[Cronos]

Mark: Earlier, you tried to make the point that Luther believed in double predestination. My point was that Luther never did. It was brewed in Calvin's cauldron, not Luther's.

Let's ask a lutheran -- xzins, did Luther believe in double-predestination?

I know that The LCMS website confirms that it does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).) and Dr. Eck says that this is evidence that the liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture.