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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg
You wrote:

But your quote is from the Catholic Catechism. The Catholic Catechism is not what Augustine wrote. In fact, Augustine's document is at odds with this Catechism.

I will admit there may be some writing of Augustine that state that a person must persevere or do a bunch of works. But Augustine wrote the Perseverance of the Saints late in life after he came to the realization of this truth. While he declares that he recalled all of his books to be burned, I'm sure not everything was burned. So you have to put his writings on a timeline with this being one of his last (and greatest I might add) works. It's his spiritual growth.

Augustine's work was never accepted in the Church and most tend to ignore it. However, Augustine's argument for God changing the will is overwhelming and compelling. His reference to Cyprian teaching him this truth illustrates that 1) this was a view held by senior members in the Church, and 2) it was a difficult teaching to grasp.

2,139 posted on 01/30/2011 12:36:10 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Excellent..thanks Harley


2,141 posted on 01/30/2011 12:46:04 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
You are correct that his earlier books are clearer of their own will they went out; of their own will they fell, and because their fall was foreknown, they were not predestined; they would however be predestined if they were going to return and persevere in holiness; hence, God's predestination is for many the cause of perseverance, for none the cause of falling away from Regarding Tradition

However, even in Perservering Grace, Augustine's theology is not for double-predestination. One sees this in Book II, Chapter 33
To which calling there is no man that can be said by men with any certainty of affirmation to belong, until he has departed from this world; but in this life of man, which is a state of trial upon the earth, Job 7:1 he who seems to stand must take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12 Since (as I have already said before) those who will not persevere are, by the most foreseeing will of God, mingled with those who will persevere, for the reason that we may learn not to mind high things, but to consent to the lowly, and may work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God that works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 We therefore will, but God works in us to will also. We therefore work, but God works in us to work also for His good pleasure.

This is profitable for us both to believe and to say—this is pious, this is true, that our confession be lowly and submissive, and that all should be given to God. Thinking, we believe; thinking, we speak; thinking, we do whatever we do; 2 Corinthians 3:5 but, in respect of what concerns the way of piety and the true worship of God, we are not sufficient to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God. For our heart and our thoughts are not in our own power; whence the same Ambrose who says this says also: But who is so blessed as in his heart always to rise upwards? And how can this be done without divine help? Assuredly, by no means. Finally, he says, the same Scripture affirms above, 'Blessed is the man whose help is of You; O Lord, ascent is in his heart.' Assuredly, Ambrose was not only enabled to say this by reading in the holy writings, but as of such a man is to be without doubt believed, he felt it also in his own heart.

herefore, as is said in the sacraments of believers, that we should lift up our hearts to the Lord, is God's gift; for which gift they to whom this is said are admonished by the priest after this word to give thanks to our Lord God Himself; and they answer that it is meet and right so to do. For, since our heart is not in our own power, but is lifted up by the divine help, so that it ascends and takes cognizance of those things which are above, Colossians 3:1 where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, and, not those things that are upon the earth, to whom are thanks to be given for so great a gift as this unless to our Lord God who does this—who in so great kindness has chosen us by delivering us from the abyss of this world, and has predestinated us before the foundation of the world?

2,152 posted on 01/30/2011 1:38:30 PM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
even in Perservering Grace, Augustine's theology is not for double-predestination. One sees this in Book II, Chapter 46
But it is said, It is by his own fault that any one deserts the faith, when he yields and consents to the temptation which is the cause of his desertion of the faith. Who denies it? But because of this, perseverance in the faith is not to be said not to be a gift of God.

2,155 posted on 01/30/2011 1:43:56 PM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD

Do note that at no point does Augustine consider grace to be unavoidable and incorruptible. The only times he uses it is in “On GRace and Free Will” is when he refers to weak will that is made invulnerable by God without losing it’s free will. In the same book he points out that in the case of Adam, God’s infallible foreknowledge of sin is not the same as a predestination to sin, thereby refuting double-predestination


2,156 posted on 01/30/2011 1:56:25 PM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; Cronos
I will admit there may be some writing of Augustine that state that a person must persevere or do a bunch of works. But Augustine wrote the Perseverance of the Saints late in life after he came to the realization of this truth. While he declares that he recalled all of his books to be burned, I'm sure not everything was burned. So you have to put his writings on a timeline with this being one of his last (and greatest I might add) works. It's his spiritual growth.

Augustine's work was never accepted in the Church and most tend to ignore it. However, Augustine's argument for God changing the will is overwhelming and compelling. His reference to Cyprian teaching him this truth illustrates that 1) this was a view held by senior members in the Church, and 2) it was a difficult teaching to grasp.

Thank you, Harley. AMEN!

2,160 posted on 01/30/2011 2:08:56 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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