To: Cronos
as described in Revelations Revelations is future Cronos...hasn't happened yet in our "Time"....and it's in our time we do live and worship.
He has already offered Himself once and the mass has THAT one-time sacrifice as it's sacrifice.
You are still saying He is being sacrificed Cronos...and that simply isn't so. No matter which time is chosen...past present or future. A Priest cannot bring Christ down into the sacrements by some hocus pocus way...and I mean no disrespect in saying it as so...but that is what it is.
Cronos, I read many and numerous articles from the Vatican site and other resources linked...they are all saying what you are trying hard to say that they aren't 'really' saying.
Call it what you want....but the ritual praticed just is not how Christ intended . Though it does give another excuse for your Priesthood to remain Priests....and the rest of the leadership all the way to Rome.
EArly morning so am off line soon.
1,106 posted on
01/27/2011 10:11:31 PM PST by
caww
To: caww
Caww — firstly, do you now agree that the mass is not a re-killing, this is NOT a re-sacrifice of Christ — please do not repeat a false statement like that.
To: caww
Secondly, I said again, Christ’s sacrifice has already happened in our time. He is not “being sacrificed”, he has already been sacrificed.
To: caww
Thank you for your civility Caww, it is a pleasure to talk to you.
Whether you believe in the Eucharist as elaborated in scripture (Gospels, Corinthians, Revelations etc) is your own choice, my aim is to point out the error in saying that the mass is in any way a re-killing or re-sacrifice of Christ in any way. It is not.
To: caww
To: caww
Do note that the ritual and the belief in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is shared by Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Armenians, Assyrians, even Lutherans (yes, there is a difference in the 'how' but Lutherans too believe that Christ's body and blood are REALLY present in the Eucharist), so this is not just "a Catholic thing".
This ritual is also something practised by the earliest of all Christians.
You can refer the Didache written in AD 70 (Apostolic Times) which says Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist....Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice ...For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’
To: caww; boatbums
by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all 1 Cor 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
It is called: Eucharist, because it is an action of thanksgiving to God. the Greek words eucharistein (Luke 22:19
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me. --> 1 Cor 11:24
and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me)
and eulogein (Mt 26:26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” --> Mk 14:22
22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body) recall the Jewish blessings that proclaim - especially during a meal - God's works: creation, redemption, and sanctification.
9 The Lord's Supper, because of its connection with the supper which the Lord took with his disciples on the eve of his Passion and because it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem (1 Cor 11:20
20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, --> Rev 19:9
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
The Breaking of Bread, because Jesus used this rite, part of a Jewish meat when as master of the table he blessed and distributed the bread (Mt 14:19
19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. --> Mt 15:36
36 Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people.)
It is by this action that his disciples will recognize him after his Resurrection (Lk 24:13-35 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.)
and it is this expression that the first Christians will use to designate their Eucharistic assemblies (Acts 2:42
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. --> Acts 2:46
46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts --> Acts 20:7
7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. --> Acts 20:11
Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left.
by doing so they signified that all who eat the one broken bread, Christ, enter into communion with him and form but one body in him (1 Cor 10:16-17
16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
To: caww; boatbums
This is called
The Holy Sacrifice because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. the terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used (as this is the self-same ONE-time Sacrifice of Christ)
- Heb 13:15; ⇒ Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.
- 1 Pet 25; ⇒ but the word of the Lord endures forever And this is the word that was preached to you
- Ps 116:13, ⇒ I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the LORD.
- Ps 116:17; ⇒ I will sacrifice a thank offering to you and call on the name of the LORD.
- Mal 1:11 My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD Almighty.
since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.
To: caww; boatbums
To: metmom
As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'
When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
The liturgy of the Eucharist unfolds according to a fundamental structure which has been preserved throughout the centuries down to our own day. It displays two great parts that form a fundamental unity:
- the gathering, the liturgy of the Word, with readings, homily and general intercessions;
- the liturgy of the Eucharist, with the presentation of the bread and wine, the consecratory thanksgiving, and communion
The liturgy of the Word and liturgy of the Eucharist together form "one single act of worship".
The Eucharistic table set for us is the table both of the Word of God and of the Body of the Lord.
Is this not the same movement as the Paschal meal of the risen Jesus with his disciples? Walking with them he explained the Scriptures to them; sitting with them at table "he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Lk 24:13-35
On the Road to Emmaus
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him. 17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.
To: caww
Revelations is not all of it future -- note that the imagery of a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain is the imagery of Christ.
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