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Ultra-Orthodox Jews Harass Israeli Believers
CBN ^

Posted on 03/12/2011 11:25:57 AM PST by Amerisrael

ARAD, Israel - For the past seven years, the small Messianic Jewish community in the southern Israeli town of Arad has been harassed and persecuted by ultra-Orthodox Jews who accuse them of missionary activity.

The small desert town, with a population of 25,000 mostly secular residents, is home to a growing number of Israeli believers.

Yakim Figueras, pastor of one of the four congregations there, told CBN News that for years, religious Jews have subjected the believing community to sometimes daily cursing and harassment outside their homes.

"They come with either half-truths against us or complete lies…and they entice their own people and try to bring others against us," Figueras said.

On Wednesday, a demonstration organized by Yad L'achim, the aggressive anti-missionary organization, brought about 200 protesters to the home of Polly Sigulim. Their message was clear.

See also: http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/03/11/report-on-anti-messianic-jewish-demo-in-arad/

Yad L'Achim Advises Chinese on Cult Fighting http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/130012

[how better to oppress followers of Yeshua/Jesus]

(Excerpt) Read more at cbn.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: israel; jews; messianics; persecution
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To: circlecity

“I’m talking about the books of Exodus and Leviticus. Read them and you find the building instructions and commands I speak of.”

Had you read it, you would know he was commanding a very specific group of people the assignment. You’re chastising modern Jews for not practicing rituals which are actually forbidden for them. They have no Kohen Godal.

By the way, you’re using the *exact* same logic Islamic extremists use to discount Jews as not valid, and breaking their covenant. Are you aware of that?


101 posted on 03/13/2011 11:16:44 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: tkas
"Have you read them in Hebrew sweetheart?"

Yes I have darling, and I've read them in Greek, also. More than enough to understand that you can't respond to the points I raise so you resort to ad-hominem attack. People have always found the Gospel offensive and insulting. Certainly many of the Jews who listened to Christ did, that's why they tried to kill him virtually every time he preached. But he continued to preach the Good News, even with his last breath, and commanded his followers to do so also. There will always be a remnant of Jews predestined for salvation and they will respond to the Gospel. The Messianic Jewish community is a testament to that.

102 posted on 03/13/2011 11:21:22 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

Greek? How would that help you understand the Torah in it’s native verse of Aramaic, or Hebrew?

Christ practiced Judaism during a time when Jews were under strife, and broke up into denominations of practice - that feuded. Christ wasn’t “preaching Christianity”. That didn’t come until his death. Learn history.


103 posted on 03/13/2011 11:31:32 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: circlecity

So calling you sweetheart is an ad-hominem attack but your posts have not been. Sorry don’t buy it. I don’t believe you have a working knowledge of Hebrew because you would not have this lack of understanding the Bible if you did.

I do not find the Gospels offensive. No one on this thread has said that. That was a silly thing to throw in.

Actually there has been response to every one of your “points”.

I have spent much time and energy over the years convincing fellow Jews that religious Christians are dear firm friends of the Jewish people and of Israel. Then someone like you comes along, and the old medieval mentality comes out again. You hurt the both the Christian and conservative causes.


104 posted on 03/13/2011 11:38:45 AM PDT by tkas (Conservative mom)
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To: circlecity

It’s actually funny that people defending Jews for Jesus types would chastise Jews for not engaging in animal sacrifices like the Golden Calf.

If you’re really curious why Jews no longer sacrifice animals: http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

or these Torah portions:
Deut. 12:4-6
Deut 12:8-11
Deut 12:13-14


105 posted on 03/13/2011 11:41:01 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: tkas

100% agree with you.

Christian Zionists are incredible support, so it’s sad when people like this validate the fears some Jews have about their motives.


106 posted on 03/13/2011 11:45:25 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

I know, guys like this stick out like sore thumbs. People point to guys like this and say, “see I told you so”, when in reality this kind of attitude is not normative. Makes our job harder though.


107 posted on 03/13/2011 11:54:22 AM PDT by tkas (Conservative mom)
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To: harmonium; tkas

It is natural that members of a group instinctively defend each other. And it is natural that American Christians would have little specific knowledge about social interactions in Israel, much less the actual motivations behind those interactions.

Christianity is not Judaism with a Messiah, it’s a completely different religion with a completely different understanding of God and indeed of creation. There’s no mystery why Christians and Jews talk completely past each other.


108 posted on 03/13/2011 11:58:09 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

Sure, but there is something to the idea that there is a set of Judeo-Christian principles and beliefs in common.

What we’re talking about is a unique predicament pertaining to Messianic and Missionary Evangelism, respectively.

Giving preference to anyone who supposedly believes in Jesus as a prophet or saviour figure is dangerous and misguided. “Messianic Jews” are their own thing, with their own unique set of beliefs...Christians are shortsighted to give them a pass in denigrating the validity of Jews, under this mistaken idea that they are somehow brothers in christ. Messianic Jews often reject the Church, and reject many Christian doctrines.


109 posted on 03/13/2011 1:12:35 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

The Jewish soul does not easily accept prohibited ‘strange worship’. Most Jews who claim to be Christian do not believe in the dogmas of classical Christianity, something even Christians understood until the past generation or two.

When someone says they are a Jewish Christian, I frankly disbelieve them without lengthy investigation. Perhaps they mistakenly believe they are Jewish, or perhaps they wish to assimilate and do not wish to be honest about their true beliefs. Sure, it happens that a Jew actually believes in classical Christianity, but it is much more rare than a non-Jew converting to Judaism.


110 posted on 03/13/2011 1:30:24 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: harmonium

Thank you for your reply, but that really was not my question...What I am asking is the Jews who believed in Jesus as the Promised Messiah of Israel before the Christ was introduced to the Gentile nations....

The Temple still considered all the Disciples of Jesus Jews so dod the Pharisees and every Jew in Israel remained a Jew when they believed Jesus was the risen Messiah...

My question is when did that stop?

When in time did the Rabbi’s say..We are now going to enact a law that says you are only a Jew if your mother is a Jew and if you deny Jesus is the risen Messiah of the world?


111 posted on 03/13/2011 2:18:49 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: jjotto

Jesus had the same problem, when he was on earth..The Pharisee’s thought he came with a *Strange Message* they looked at Jesus as a Jew who was just strange, because they were not looking for what he brought to Israel.....

They were looking for a *Warrior* from GOD who would free them from Roman Opression, they were not looking for a Messiah that brought love...They were still under the impression that the warrior in GOD could defeat Israel’s enemies, and free her from captivity....However Jesus said *Love* is going to free you, take that message to the Gentiles...That confused them...


112 posted on 03/13/2011 2:29:45 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: harmonium

Can you see that no other faith or belief system can impact the people of the earth like Jesus Christ...

People do not fear Muslims who try to convert them, although they fear the violence of conversion through Jihad but not Islam’s doctrines, no one fears Mormonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wiccan, Scientology, just Jesus Christ..

IMHO and I mean this resepctfully, if the Orthodox Jews were truly comfortable with what they believe, they would not fear Messianic Jews, or Christians at all...They would not fear there motives, they would not feel threatened in thier heart, soul and mind...But somehow *Jesus Christ* does affect them even if it is in the negative....


113 posted on 03/13/2011 2:48:06 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

You will notice in Exodus Chapter 3 that Moses, the original Messiah, did not have this problem.


114 posted on 03/13/2011 4:23:40 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

The difference between the Physical and the Divine...

People are trapped in the Physical and that is why the Divine is strange to them...


115 posted on 03/13/2011 4:55:08 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP
People are trapped in the Physical and that is why the Divine is strange to them

Well, certainly to MOST people!

Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

...

12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

116 posted on 03/13/2011 5:18:13 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.[c] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[d] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

Moses encountered the *Divine* as he was in the Physical.

If the majority of Israelites encountered what Moses did, they would of rejected *I AM WHO I AM* as it would of been strange....

Jesus said...The Kingdom of GOD has come to you, yet you fail to recognize it....


117 posted on 03/13/2011 5:24:27 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

YAHWEH
“O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.” Psalm 8:1-2
JESUS
“But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David!’ they were indignant, and they said to him, ‘Do you hear what these are saying?’ And Jesus said to them, ‘Yes; have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise”?’” Matthew 21:15-16
.


118 posted on 03/13/2011 5:40:25 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

The story does continue in Exodus 4.


119 posted on 03/13/2011 5:44:02 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: TaraP

TaraP, Jesus was never recognized as a Messiah by Jews, that’s just revisionism.

Those Jews who essentially became apostates, and splintered off were never accepted within the Temple.

The answer to your question is both in the destruction of the Second Temple, and the formalization of Judaism under the oral tradition of The Talmud. With the creation of a diaspora, there was a need to form a consensus between Rabbinical thought. That said, the issue of the Messiahs arrival was never a grey area. There were many fake messiahs in Jewish history but they were easily exposed as shams.


120 posted on 03/13/2011 5:48:23 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: TaraP

“They were looking for a *Warrior* from GOD who would free them from Roman Opression, they were not looking for a Messiah that brought love...”

1) Jesus never represented himself as a Messiah, so the idea that Jews rejected him as such is historically inaccurate.

2) Jews know little of the Messiah, only that the arrival will cause certain things to happen. None happened.

3) Ascribing Jews an anti-love, warrior seeking agenda is rather strange and doesn’t fit anything in the Talmud regarding Messiach prophecies.

4) Your concept of Orthodox Jews cowering in fear of bible thumping evangelism is offensive as can be to all sides. Orthodox Jews aren’t particularly fond of secularism or Islamism, or Buddhism either. is that testament to the love of Jesus that you think fear is a covert sign of respect and awe? Seriously? This again mimics the tone Muslims speak of Muhammed. Just saying.


121 posted on 03/13/2011 5:57:43 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: TaraP

Uh.... Jews never believed Moses was the Messiah.

The problem here is anyone who thinks they know what Judaism is based on King James version of it.

It’s puzzling why anyone quoting the Bible would chose to deny that Exodus 23:31, Genesis 15:18-21, Numbers 34:1-15, Ezekiel 47:13-20 all speak of Israel and land, and borders.


122 posted on 03/13/2011 6:09:04 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

Judaism itself did not consist of a uniform set of beliefs.

Rather, there were several major religious parties such as the Sadducees and the Pharisees, both mentioned in the New Testament, and the Essenes, whose teachings were later unearthed by the Qumran discoveries.

These three groups existed simultaneously in Palestine. Although the Sadducees were the descendants of the priests and controlled the Temple, the Pharisees had the greatest influence among the Jewish people.

Josephus describes how the Pharisees and the Sadducees debated the concepts of fate, free will, and other issues over which they were at odds. Doctrinal differences were the order of the day in ancient Palestine.

In addition, the Jews living in other parts of the Roman Empire were influenced by Gnostic philosophies.

Gnostic ideas were introduced in the Mediterranean lands in the first century B.C. Because of the Gnostic appeal to reason and secret knowledge, Hellenistic Jews felt they could accept these new ideas without being disloyal to the law of Moses. Thus, a variety of religious ideas and doctrines was freely circulating within Judaism.

Jesus taught the Samaritan woman that “salvation is of the Jews.” He dispatched His disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Israel...

After Christ’s resurrection, His disciples continued to remain within the fold of Judaism. The small community of believers was later called a sect by the Jews (Acts 24:5, 28:22), but it was still purely Jewish. Although their teachings were highly unpopular, day after day Christians went to the Temple to worship and to preach the Gospel (Acts 2:46-47, 3:1, 5:20).

The Jews in power seem to have tolerated their teachings until Christians began to attract large numbers of converts, including priests. The Temple officers, who were Sadducees, wanted to kill the apostles not for their abrogation of Judaism but because they were stirring people up over the death of Christ.

“The first Christians are Jews without exception. For them this is not simply a fact, but a part of their conscious conviction. For them their faith is not a new religion which leads them away from the Jewish religion” (History of Primitive Christianity,,,,)

Rather, the Christians are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Jesus is the Messiah, and the church is the true Israel.

What I see harmonium is that Jesus Christ was born a Jew to a Jewish woman, he said salvation has come through the Jews and if you follow his teachings than you are a *Spiritual Jew*

So if one is born an ethnic Jew as Messianic Jews are and they are following the teachings of Jesus how is it they cannot be a ethnic or SPiritual Jew, when even the Pharisees never accused Jesus of being an *Apostate Jew*?

This is why I think the Ultra Orthodox Jews have fear of Jews that believe the exact Same way the Jews did in Ancient Israel...

Can you see that?


123 posted on 03/13/2011 6:11:38 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: harmonium

Then you either think Jesus was a Jewish Wizard or at some point you will see him as he truly is the Messiah of Israel, because what he said would happen in the future of the world has come to fruition......

Are these things happening or not?

MATTHEW 24:

Matthew 24
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple- *HAPPENED*

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. (FALSE PROPHETS RUNNING AMOK TODAY)

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. HAPPENING

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. HAPPENING

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. HAPPENING

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
HAPPENING..

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. HAPPENING....

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. HAPPENING...

The Great Tribulation-
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
No One Knows the Day or Hour

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


124 posted on 03/13/2011 6:21:13 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

I indicated this in a previous post. Though I can’t what year- It was when Christianity started converting pagans to Christianity. THey no longer were Jews entering the fold. Once that happened and they rejected the obligation of Jewish law, they were done.


125 posted on 03/13/2011 7:10:38 PM PDT by tkas (Conservative mom)
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To: TaraP

Perhaps what Jews “fear” the most from evangelicals is that they will write extraordinarily long emails based only partly in Biblical reality and the rest in translation which bears little similarity to the original Hebrew. Then they define the terms in a Christian context and say “don’t you see?” WHen will you accpet”- as if they know the one and only legitimate path to the divine.

Don’t try to parse Biblical test unless you are doing it in Hebrew. Every translator is a liar.

You know there is nothing about a virgin birth in the Bible, right?.....


126 posted on 03/13/2011 7:21:13 PM PDT by tkas (Conservative mom)
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To: tkas

I agree with you to an extent....

When they took the actual words of grace and salvation to the gentile world, and it morphed into a complete other religion then yes it lost it’s Jewish following as they knew it...However the Jewish Law had been fullfilled with Jesus Christ...

This was discussed heavily in the Book of Acts, do gentiles need to be circumcised,do they honor the sabbath, do they eat kosher etc...

Law vs. Grace...That is the dis-connect...


127 posted on 03/13/2011 7:45:14 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: tkas

Yes I know about the Virgin translation in *Hebrew* and yes
I know that translation can be a problem in many scripture contexts....

However as the other poster stated Orthodox Judaism does not go into any detail, about what to look for when the Messiah comes...I have read what Judaism sees as fullfillment of certain qualifications that will determine the Messiah of Israel, but as I have asked before, how long does that individual have to complete his mission?

There is nothing in the Torah nor Talmud that gives a time frame how long the time is needed for Messiah to complete his work..


128 posted on 03/13/2011 7:53:17 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: tkas

Yes I know about the Virgin translation in *Hebrew* and yes
I know that translation can be a problem in many scripture contexts....

However as the other poster stated Orthodox Judaism does not go into any detail, about what to look for when the Messiah comes...I have read what Judaism sees as fullfillment of certain qualifications that will determine the Messiah of Israel, but as I have asked before, how long does that individual have to complete his mission?

There is nothing in the Torah nor Talmud that gives a time frame how long the time is needed for Messiah to complete his work..


129 posted on 03/13/2011 7:56:32 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

“Judaism itself did not consist of a uniform set of beliefs.”

You have no idea how ignorant that statement is, do you?

Judaism is defined by set beliefs, prayers, tenets and observances that unite ALL religious Jews. This has always been true.

“Messianic Jews” do NOT subscribe to the same set of beliefs, prayers, tenets or observances no matter what their ethnicity.


130 posted on 03/13/2011 8:32:51 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
"Christian Zionists are incredible support, so it’s sad when people like this validate the fears some Jews have about their motives."
Christian Zionism is a relatively new thing, a little more than 100 years old and it has manifested mostly in America. The rest of the world's Christian thought is much closer to what circlecity says as it has been for the last 2000 years. You can't just discount the cultural history of millenia and its implication. The best thing that we and Christians can do here is agree to disagree and move on, if possible. In the end our paths are separate, in spite of whatever common purpose we may currently share.
131 posted on 03/13/2011 8:35:22 PM PDT by JadeEmperor
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To: TaraP

“However the Jewish Law had been fullfilled with Jesus Christ...”

You fundamentally do not understand what Jewish law means. Simply put, Jewish laws are the code of ethics, and procedures for living as a Jew. It’s not something you can achieve like the eastern religions concept of enlightenment, it’s a way of life.

Furthermore, if you think you’re saying Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, that too is ludicrous, because Jesus didn’t do any of the things promised with the arrival of the Messiah. None of them. At all.


132 posted on 03/13/2011 8:38:13 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: TaraP

“There is nothing in the Torah nor Talmud that gives a time frame how long the time is needed for Messiah to complete his work..”

False. The Talmudic sages believed it would be with the arrival of the Messiah, and generations would be reunited, and so on.


133 posted on 03/13/2011 8:41:45 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

Not all Jews eat Kosher

Not all Jews honor the Sabbath

Not all Jews honor every law of Torah..

So I am not sure where you are going..Human Beings all to some extent live by Jewish Law ie: The Ten Commandments...

Again where does it say the Messiah has to complete his mission in the lifespan of a human being, which is proably between 70 and 80 years...


134 posted on 03/13/2011 8:46:45 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: JadeEmperor

“In the end our paths are separate, in spite of whatever common purpose we may currently share.”

Sorry but if you’re not talking about coexistence, and allowing different people to be different, then that type of dogma is much like what we oppose Muslims for doing. If a Muslim started throwing Koranic verses to promote their vision of Jesus in a similar fashion, it would be offensive.

Any negativity towards Jews and their beliefs is beyond counter productive, and it’s fair to say, Jesus would not approve.


135 posted on 03/13/2011 8:47:13 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

What about the Essenes?


136 posted on 03/13/2011 8:50:08 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

TaraP - I’m not sure how you as a non-Jew can be critical of how Jews do or do not observe their religion.

Who the hell are you to infringe your judgements?

Meanwhile, here’s what Jews believe will happen right upon the return of the Messiah.... :

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel, Isaiah 2:11-17
The Messiah will be descended from King David, Isaiah 11:1
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership, Isaiah 11:4
Death will be swallowed up forever, Isaiah 25:8
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored, Ezekiel 16:55
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness, Isaiah 51:11
All of the dead will rise again, Isaiah 26:19

Why would Jews think Jesus brought them any of that?


137 posted on 03/13/2011 9:00:57 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

I harbor absoloutly no negative feelings twoards anyone, no matter what race, religion or creed anyone is....

As far as being offended, I am not offended and I hear some of the most vile things from other’s about GOD, Christians, Jews from the most angry atheists I converse with on another forum...I have been pre-warned about all this hate from my belief in Christ...

John 15:18-21

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you... because they do not know Him who sent Me.”

My point was that Israeli or Messianic Jews have a right to
be Jews in Israel and be respected by the Orthodox Rabbi’s
because they are only practicing a belief that was permitted by the very first *Christians* (Jews) who believed in Jesus Christ...Jesus Christ was a Jew , he never practiced another religion or endorsed a Pagan belief to the Jews and even the Pharisees never said he was an *Apostate Jew* Jesus taught the temple priests about GOD before he began his final ministry...

Jesus was a well versed Torah Observant Jew that never defiled the word of the Almighty.


138 posted on 03/13/2011 9:03:29 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

You tell me...what about the Essenes? What is it that makes you embrace the groups who splintered off and started their own thing above the actual Jews who continued their original traditions?

Oh, right...You dispute that Jews ever had a unified religion, and like an Islamic extremist you chose dispute the validity of Jews based on modern day observance trends. I’ll just say it at this point, there’s a mildly antisemitic tone coming out in your posts.


139 posted on 03/13/2011 9:05:39 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
Sorry but if you’re not talking about coexistence, and allowing different people to be different, then that type of dogma is much like what we oppose Muslims for doing. If a Muslim started throwing Koranic verses to promote their vision of Jesus in a similar fashion, it would be offensive.
I think you are thoroughly confusing European Enlightment ideas and the Jewish Tradition here. The Jewish Tradition was never about "allowing different people to be different". It is about following the written and oral Torah and it specifically includes COMMANDMENTS to possess and inhabit the Land of Israel and drive out (that means EXPEL) all "strange worshippers" as well as Jewish apostates, out, from the land of Israel and from any Jewish community. Sounds harsh? You bet. You are trying to reconcile irreconcilable things here and miserably failing because of that.
140 posted on 03/13/2011 9:09:44 PM PDT by JadeEmperor
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To: TaraP

“My point was that Israeli or Messianic Jews have a right to be Jews in Israel and be respected by the Orthodox Rabbi’s”

Ethnicity is decided by your lineage and guided by Israel’s Rabbinical Council.

Religion is determined by your beliefs, practice, denomination. Unlike Jesus, his followers are not Torah observant Jews, they are Christians. End of story.


141 posted on 03/13/2011 9:10:47 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: JadeEmperor

JadeEmperor:

The Talmud is full of arguments, and contradictions. How can you say there’s no tradition of Jews allowing for differences? Arguing over Talmud is how scholars learn it. Only a core set of commandments and tenets are set in stone.

You’re another one starting to reveal some rather antisemitic theories about Israel and the Jewish Community .... neither of which are actively trying to drive out non-Jews despite your hate filled paranoia.


142 posted on 03/13/2011 9:17:24 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

Death will be swallowed up forever, Isaiah 25:8

Cross Reference:

Corinthians 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Most of those prophecies are addressed in the Second Coming of Christ....

Again I am not telling anyone how to practice anything, I am just conversing with you why I think Messianic Jews are Jews...


143 posted on 03/13/2011 9:19:20 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

Oh in that case, I think Muslims are the real Christians.

See how stupid that sounds?

With every Bible verse you provide, I’ll cross reference it to the Koran. Would that be constructive? Or do you lack any self awareness at all?

See, you can not violate ALL the basic principles of a religion, and then lay claim to the title. That kind of fabrication is a calculated subversion.

You have to PRACTICE JUDAISM to be a Jew.
If you practice Christianity you are not a Religious Jew.

Still confused?


144 posted on 03/13/2011 9:25:42 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

Don’t be ridiculous and don’t stir up animosity when there is none, by using a Antisemetic bent on people like myself that are so far removed from being that kind of person it isn’t funny....Shame on you...

I converse with all kinds of people, and I am not so sensitive that I start attacking people because they do not agree with my belief system...

I don’t embrace the Essenes, I was saying that there was no Judaism uniformity in Ancient Israel when Jesus walked in that city..

What about the story of the Samaritans? You have heard the story of the *Good Samaritan*


145 posted on 03/13/2011 9:25:56 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: harmonium
"You’re another one starting to reveal some rather antisemitic theories about Israel and the Jewish Community .... neither of which are actively trying to drive out non-Jews despite your hate filled paranoia."
Dude, I am a Jew (yes halachically, both Mom and Dad Jewish too.) I grew up in a former Communist country, where I since very early childhood was constantly reminded by non-Jews of my Jewishness (even though my family was pretty secular.) Growing up, I sometimes resented the stigma. But in a way, this was a good thing, it has not allowed me to forget my roots. Are you aware of the percentage of intermarriages among the secular American Jews? That they are rapidly assimilating in 2-3 generations? I only recognize that we ARE different and set apart from other nations in the world. That's all.
146 posted on 03/13/2011 9:29:13 PM PDT by JadeEmperor
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To: harmonium

So you think *Mere Men* have the right to say who is a Jew? you think that a Messianic Jew that has been born to a Jewish Family has to deny his ethnic lineage to appease the Rabbi’s?

If that’s the case..Alrighty then...

I will just say: I am glad I do not have to take any direction from Man about who I am, and what I believe....

Thanks for chatting...


147 posted on 03/13/2011 9:33:56 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

I’m not making a joke.. your posts are offensive, and you think you’re entitled to make them. Disgusting.

All of what would become Rambam’s 13 principles of Judaism were uniform beliefs defining and uniting ALL Jews during their history, including Jesus lifetime.


148 posted on 03/13/2011 9:34:52 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: JadeEmperor

Oh great, I’m arguing with George Soros, apparently.


149 posted on 03/13/2011 9:36:40 PM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

You still don’t get it. Too bad. Its too late and I rest my case.


150 posted on 03/13/2011 9:40:24 PM PDT by JadeEmperor
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