Posted on 04/07/2011 10:16:01 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
...[Kazimierz] has been transformed into one of the hippest parts of the city. Pavements are crowded with cafe tables and streets are lined with vodka bars, vintage boutiques and tiny art galleries. Only the peeling plaster and brickwork of some of the facades gives away the past neglect, and that is rapidly being patched up.
Jewishness has been adopted as a selling point, almost a badge of cool, in a way that is sometimes tasteless. Converted golf carts tout for tourist custom with awnings displaying the itinerary: “Auschwitz, Schindler’s factory, Jewish quarter.” A local rabbi, Eliezer Gurary, spoke of his disquiet at the Jewish mannequins in shops – dolls of black-robed, bearded men that border on racist caricature. There have been complaints over a “Jewish-themed” restaurant that displays a page of the Torah on its wall.
At the community centre, Ornstein says: “You have some fake Jewish-style restaurants, and I would love those to be restaurants run by Jews, kosher restaurants and actually be realistic. I think that’s a way off, [but] we’re moving in that direction. These days in Poland the fact that you can call a restaurant a Jewish restaurant and that brings people in, is in itself a positive thing.
“I think the remarkable thing here is that you have a community that’s growing, that’s optimistic, that feels very safe, and it’s going in a direction which is very different to most Jewish communities in Europe.”
A survey conducted last year by the Polish Public Opinion Poll Institute indicated a decline in antisemitism among all age groups over the decade. The poll, which asked questions intended to uncover people’s belief in Jewish “influence” over Polish politics, found that fewer than 6% mentioned Jewish people when asked about influential minorities, compared with nearly 20% in 2002.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.maars.net ...
Are you certain that there are no Polish restaurants in Tel Aviv? Besides, most AShkenazi food is more at home in Poland than the middle east.
Ashkenazik food makes it over here in modified form. There are bagels, but the indigenous version is way too sweet. I have yet to see golumpkis (stuffed cabbage), szlyszka, pierogi or other Polish/Ashkenazik food anywhere. Kasza you can buy and make at home, together with varnishkes if you wish, but no restaurant that I know of serves it. As for Tel Aviv, I’ve only been there a few times in connection with travel to and from the States via Ben Gurion. But if there’s any Polish or ashkenazik cuisine, it’s not at the Tel Aviv Tachana Markazit (central bus station), which has felafel and shawarma stands ad nauseum.
I don’t deny anything you say here.
But on the other hand, many Poles in Auschwitz celebrated when a record number of Jews were gassed on a particular day, and Polish partisans had a nasty habit of informing on Jewish partisans to the Nazis, delivering intelligence on their whereabouts. When the Jews were shut up in the ghetto, many Poles gleefully helped themselves to their property, and right after the war, there were massive pogroms throughout Poland. A former employer of mine’s late father, a caftan-wearing rabbi, spent time in a holding cell in Poland on suspicion of cannibalism during this period. He was eventually released, and perhaps the police only arrested him to keep him from getting lynched by the mob who believed the blood libels. But even so, there are two sides to the coin.
Poland is singled out, because there were so many instances of it, since Jews were such a large portion of the populace, and because those Poles who were anti-Semitic were so vehement about it.
I do agree, however, that the Ukraine was much, much worse, thanks to Stalin cleverly using Jewish party members to do all the dirty work of collectivization, so that when the backlash came, it would be against them. Thanks to this policy, he nearly lost the war, because the Ukrainians were at first wholeheartedly pro-Nazi, especially because they wanted revenge against the Jews, until the orders came down from Hitler to treat them like untermenschen, and thereby alienated them. Had he not been so doctrinaire, the Soviets would never have made it into Berlin.
I don’t disagree with anything there, and it’s true, that had Hitler treated the Soviet Union more like France in terms of their occupation, then he would have had a much easier go of it, at least in terms of getting rid of Stalin.
Poles in Auschwitz celebrated when a record number of Jews were gassed on a particular day -- proof please? And Poles where? in the concentration camp? in the village?
Polish partisans had a nasty habit of informing on Jewish partisans to the Nazis, -- that's not true. the Armia Krajowe the national Polish army of resistance set up the Żegota. Rada Pomocy Żydom (Council for Aid to the Jews), those who co-operated with the Germans to round up Jews were punished by death.
Poles who commited Szmalcownik blackmailing Jews who were hiding, or blackmailing Poles who protected Jews during the Nazi occupation were considered collaborators by the resistance movement and it was punished with a death sentence
About gleefully helping themselves to the Jewish property --> I don't think it's fair to blame the entire Polish nation on the greediness of a few. There was no official or group round-up of Jews. There were scum who blackmailed Jews or denounced them to the Germans for money (yes, for money -- note above that this act was considered collaboration and punished with death, yet remember also Group 13 -- Jewish collaborationists -- you can't blame all polish jews for these scum, neither can you blame all non-jewish poles for their scum, ditto for the Żagiew - a collaborationist Jewish grou that infiltrated the Jewish resistance to reveal its connections with Polish underground remember over 1000 jews belonged to this
Remember that through the occupation of Poland, many Polish Gentiles – at great risk to themselves and their families – engaged in rescuing Jews from the Nazis. Grouped by nationality, Poles are the biggest number of people who rescued Jews during the Holocaust, 6,135 Poles have been awarded the title of Righteous among the Nations by the State of Israel – more than any other nation.
b>Remember that the Poles and their families would be executed if found helping Jews in any way, yet many helped openly. On November 10, 1941, the death penalty was expanded by Hans Frank to apply to Poles who helped Jews "in any way: by taking them in for the night, giving them a lift in a vehicle of any kind" or "feed[ing] runaway Jews or sell[ing] them foodstuffs."
Remember also that according to Himmler, "All Poles will disappear from the world. [...] It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles."
Many Poles were executed for helping Jews -- remember that according to the Nazis even non-denunciation could be construed as "helping" -- and it's one thing to be executed yourself and another to get your family in danger. Yet 700 of those 6 135 Poles in the yad vashem were executed for helping Jews. despite the much harsher conditions, Polish citizens of Warsaw managed to support and hide the same percentage of Jews as did the citizens of cities in reportedly less anti-semitic and safer countries in Western Europe. Remember that 450 000 Jews were hidden by Warszawianki after the ghetto was destroyed.
Also, remember that the Jewish community in Poland was unlike the Jews in England, France, Germany etc. -- they were allowed to basically live by their own laws and customs and unlike the Germans Jews, many Polish Jews retained themselves as a separate "nation" -- this was the basis for the Republic of 4 nations (my post above).
Jan Karski and Witold Pilecki through the Polish govt in exile told Churchill and FDR about the concentration camps but no one listened.
Now the story of the rabbi -- questions: where in Poland? Who had those suspicions? Was it spread by Nazis to keep the Poles (Jews and Gentiles) divided?
Finally, the bit about pogroms post the war -- these were not "massive", let's be honest here. Compare these to Tsarist Russia for example. Or take them on their own. The Kielce pogrom had 42 people murdered and 50 injured. These are bad actions, but not "massive", please.
The entry I linked says Dobroszycki wrote that "according to general estimates 1500 Jews lost their lives in Poland from liberation until the summer of 1947", but Jan Gross, the author who cites Dobroszycki, says that only a fraction of these deaths can be attributed to antisemitism and that most were due to general post war disorder, political violence and banditry -- non-Jewish poles also died due to this chaos
Of the Yad Vesham studies David Engel writes
it has turned up more or less detailed descriptions of 130 incidents in 102 locations between September 1944 and September 1946, in which 327 Jews lost their lives.
What were the reasons for this? It's clear that many Jews also came back from the Soviet union and there were a few Jews in the communist leadership -- remember that communism was imposed on Poland and they felt betrayed and these few then became the stereotype of the Jewish communist.
Of course the communists used this to keep the country further under their thumb.
My in-laws who are Polish tell me of the studies which tried to blame all of Poland's historical problems on capitalist, Germans (and hinting at Jews) -- the commies wanted to keep people's problems away from reality (hence cigarettes and Wódka were actually cheaper than food!)
In conclusion let me say this, the holocaust was something that should "never again" happen - the systematic murdering of people (Jews and Gypsies -- btw Gypsies were treated as bad or worse AND many Poles), but this was a crime perpetrated ON Poland by Germans. The German aim (as you see in Himmler's statement and also if you read the Mein Kampf) was clear -- Poles are third in line to be exterminated after Gypsies and Jews. There was no collaborationist government that marched Jews. The ones who did denounce their non-gentile neighbors were punished by death by the resistance if found out. The monument in Warsaw is a commemoration of Polish citizens (Jews) who were killed -- that's the key, these people were Poles, no matter that their religion was Judaism.
I don't think it's fair the way that Poles in WWII have been treated in American media -- my first reading of Poland was Leon Uris' Miła 18. And I found out later that a lot of his statements were not true and also that Poles did shout out to the allies (and needless to add, to American Jews) to take note of the horrors, right from 1942, but no one listened.
At the end of the war, the blame was put on the Poles and the allies removes their blood-stained gloves after betraying the Eastern countries (for this I blame more FDR than Churchill) and allowed everyone to demonize these now enemy states.
good point -- most of the Jews who remained in the 60s were die-hard communists. hence the hardening of the (incorrect, but easily understood) stereotype that they were all communists.This was an action by Kruschev to eliminate all members of Stalin, so "why not blame the J**s for Stalin" -- the standard commie way of finding a scapegoat.
But ordinary Poles did see through this ruse (Poles tend to be cynical about authority!)
I think that this has led to a stereotype in the counter-direction of Poles being anti-semitic. I can tell you for a fact that they as a people are not. There may be a few nuts (generally old communist era folks) who harbour these sentiments but the oldest (80+ are not anti-semitic) and the young (<50) are not either.
I think the key is to stop the "blame the Poles for the holocaust" and for both Poland and Israel to realise that they can be very good friends -- remember that Israel practically lived inside the Rzeczpospolita during the Middle Ages, so this can be a beautiful friendship based on mutual respect.
Yes, the monuments and plaques are very moving. I've visited Poland many times over the last 15 years (I married a Polish girl back in 1995) and am always moved by the stark simplicity of them.
One of the most moving things in Warsaw is the commemoration of “W-Hour” when the Warsaw Uprising began, August 1st at 5:00 PM, sirens go off and everybody stops in their tracks for one-minute to commemorate it.
yup, these guys know how to mourn! They just had a mourning day yesterday for Katyn II
We’ve never been in Warsaw for that - but we are intending to go to Poland in late July/early August this year, so we might well get to see it this time around.
1. In the concentration camp, among non-inmate workers, I believe. The witness, who admits to having participated in a toast when a record number were gassed, was of the nobility. Forget his name, though.
2. You are right that you cannot blame all Poles for the actions of the opportunists and haters. There were many brave, exemplary Poles. But the reverse is also true. You cannot say either that all Poles were brave or exemplary. If they had been, the siege on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising might have been relieved or at least lightened considerably.
3. Polish Jews and Polish Poles go back many centuries together. Like all long-standing relationships between different ethnic groups, the relationship becomes complicated and not easy to understand. To reach understanding, you must take into account all the conflicting factors and elements. I don’t claim that Poles were all low-life collaborators, or that none of them did the right thing or acted heroically. Neither were all Jews hapless, innocent victims in whose mouths butter would not melt. For example, take George Soros, please.
4. Consequently, Polish anti-Semitism is an historical fact, and must be addressed as such, and compared to Ruthenian, Ukranian, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Russian, Czech, Slovak, Serbian, etc., anti-Semitism to gets its true measure and context. Likewise, Polish heroic acts towards Jews are an historical fact as well. I never said otherwise. To get the true measure, you must compare the behavior of all those other groups. Finally, you must compare the heroic Poles to the villainous ones, and see how many behaved one way and how many the other, and qualify the villainous acts and the heroic ones by level. A peasant sheltering a Jewish family in his barn, for example, might get a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, since he also charged them exhorbitant money. He might go down to a 1 if he threw them out when they could no longer pay, or even go into negative numbers if he turned them in when they ran out of valuables, or demanded that their daughter put out for him if they wanted to stay. These things must be looked into methodically. Neither you nor I can really pass final judgment with our limited information and respectively biased perspectives, but somebody some day ought to, though the heavens tremble.
“Finally, the bit about pogroms post the war — these were not “massive”, let’s be honest here. Compare these to Tsarist Russia for example. Or take them on their own. The Kielce pogrom had 42 people murdered and 50 injured. These are bad actions, but not “massive”, please.”
I did not say that each pogrom was “massive.” The fact that pogroms occurred throughout Poland makes them massive, even if the numbers killed in each were conventional relative to, say, Kishinev in 1905, or Hebron in 1929.
“In conclusion let me say this, the holocaust was something that should “never again” happen - the systematic murdering of people (Jews and Gypsies — btw Gypsies were treated as bad or worse AND many Poles), but this was a crime perpetrated ON Poland by Germans.”
Except that you miss an essential point. anti-Semitic incitement was a key strategy by which the Nazis took over a country. It assured them that they would have supporters, informers and collaborators to undermine any resistance. I’m gratified that the Polish resistance officially threatened to put to death anyone who turned in Jews to the Nazis. But in practice, that did not happen except occasionally, and only in places where the resistance was strong enough to do such things. So that it was done TO Poland, you are right. But in the same sense that the crack cocaine epidemic was done TO American blacks; i.e., with the active cooperation of members of the community.
Anti-Gypsy sentiment, while always present everywhere, is not as intense. Anti-Polish sentiment, of course, would be an absolute non-starter with Poles. But when Hitler called on anti-Semites of the world to unite, he meant in Poland, too. Divide and Conquer. It’s an old game. It works.
True -- and I never claimed that, like all people -- Polish gentiles and Polish Jews had brave folks and collaborators and cowards
If they had been, the siege on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising might have been relieved or at least lightened considerably. -- but they did. The Armia Krajowa (the home army) attacked German units near the ghetto walls and smuggled in weapons and ammo.Stefan Korbowski. The AK also sent out information and appeals to help -- these radio transmissions went to the allies as well, who did not help at all. The Państwowy Korpus Bezpieczeństwa fought inside the ghetto alongside the polish jewish fighters. The German commander Jürgen Stroop, reported
"When we invaded the Ghetto for the first time, the Jews and the Polish bandits succeeded in repelling the participating units, including tanks and armored cars, by a well-prepared concentration of fire. (...) The main Jewish battle group, mixed with Polish bandits, had already retired during the first and second day to the so-called Muranowski Square. There, it was reinforced by a considerable number of Polish bandits. Its plan was to hold the Ghetto by every means in order to prevent us from invading it. (...) Time and again Polish bandits found refuge in the Ghetto and remained there undisturbed, since we had no forces at our disposal to comb out this maze. (...) One such battle group succeeded in mounting a truck by ascending from a sewer in the so-called Prosta [Street], and in escaping with it (about 30 to 35 bandits). ... The bandits and Jews - there were Polish bandits among these gangs armed with carbines, small arms, and in one case a light machine gun - mounted the truck and drove away in an unknown direction."Don't forget that both the Ghetto uprising and the Warsaw uprising, a year later, were doomed enterprises. neither the Jewish resistance nor the gentile AK had enough weapons to fight the Germans. In fact in 1943, the AK hadn't enough weapons at all, so it is unfair to say that they didn't help when they did supply some weaponry and ammo
Polish Jews and Polish Poles go back many centuries together. Like all long-standing relationships between different ethnic groups, the relationship becomes complicated and not easy to understand. -- yes, I agree, that is why I objected to your statement about this monument being a Przeprasam bardzo -- because these jews who were killed, were Polish. They may have been followers of judaism but they, their fathers, grandfathers etc were born in Poland and were Polish, THAT is what the memorial is about, about Polish citizens killed.
incorrect analogy. There was no active co-operation of Poles (gentiles or jews) in the same level. The introduction of the Nazis was alien and it benefited no one (on the contrary the crack cocaine epidemic benefited the dealers in the form of long term money -- there is a study by some guy who's mentioned in freakonomics)
It benefited those who profited from the Nazi occupation and extermination program, i.e., collaborators and looters. A few were executed by partisans so inclined. More were ostracised. Many more profited.
But to say that it benefited no one benefited, or even that the Germans were entirely foreign is a mistake. The port city of Gdensk/Danzig and its environs has a large ethnic German population, and port cities become very important during war time.
To be sure, there were Jews who profited, too.
That is not easy for me to say. I would go so far as to say that the entire leftist faction of the war-time Zionist movement ought to hang its head in shame, David Ben Gurion and Teddy Kolek especially.
And also do note that my statement because these jews who were killed, were Polish. They may have been followers of judaism but they, their fathers, grandfathers etc were born in Poland and were Polish, THAT is what the memorial is about, about Polish citizens killed. is not just me a non-Pole expressing it, but is what I hear from close friends who are Polish. We talk freely and they do have their prejudices about a lot, but anti-semitism, no. They genuinely feel angry at Germans for ripping out a part of their national identity -- Jewishness was a part of the Polish identity, strong Jewish identity with a strong Catholic (and yes a strong Lutheran too -- I find the Lutherans in Poland to be more religious than those in Germany and they were also anti-Nutzi during the war).
The reasons for this are well explored in the book on the 1920s war between the Soviets and the Poles when Lenin wished to conquer Poland and quickly conquer Germany (quite possible if you think of it) and Poland stood in the way.
As you of course know, Poland was partitioned in 1793 between Austria, Russia and Prussia. Only in the Austrian part was Polishness allowed to flourish -- and it did, with a lot of "Poles" who were ethnic Jews, Lithuanians, Tatars (Sienkiewicz), Ruthenians etc. In Prussia it was suppressed, even more so in the 1870s in the German Empire under Bismarck's Kulturkampf. In Russia it was brutally suppressed due to the 500+ years of war between Poles and Muscovy.
The Jews in the east were caught in this -- ethnically not slavs, not even culturally (unlike the Lithuanians who became heavily slavicized due to their first contacts with the Ruthenians and then with Poland), so technically they felt no affinity to either. Initially the affinity was more to Poland (due to history), but the movement (forced or otherwise) to Jewish only villages had a negative effect. This was still not apparent until the late 1800s as Jews fought in all of poland's Powstania (uprisings) not as "jews" but poles.
Then came Marxism and you cannot deny that this philosophy was aimed primarily at industrial workers, not farmhands. That it won in Russia, a backwards, heavily agricultural society was a freak of nature. In Russia there were 3 classes -- the dirt-poor peasants, the rich upper classes and the middle-men, who were mostly Jewish (as they were the only ones allowed and quite frankly the only ones intelligent enough). So, of course, like in other European countries, the upper classes who were the real oppressors hid this fact by hiding behind and blaming the jews as evil usurers etc. -- the same practise was followed by African warlords in the 50s-80s against Indians
Anyway, so this was the case in Tsarist Russia -- the blame against jews, the pogroms to divert peasantry's minds away from their real problems. And this was practised in Kresy as well. The Poles were better educated and Jews were better integrated so the effect was not that severe, but after a century....
Back to communism :) and Russian Jews were disproportionately attracted to this new philosophy which offered equality to all and which seemed better than the Tsarist system. So many joined. The communist party in 1919 had a few people of Jewish origin (not practising) in high positions.
then the leader of the Hungarian communist state that existed from 1919-1920 was half-Jewish, leading to wider spread of the stereotype.
Oh and let's not forget that disgusting piece of thrash, the Protocols of the Elders... -- I doubt a more effective piece of hatred has ever been penned.
================
Anyway, so when the Soviet armies started advancing on Poland, these were a disorganized horde of barbarians whose aims were anti-religion and anti-nationalism. To Poles who had just got their independence after 127 years, this was unthinkable -- they were fervently Catholic (reinforced by the Kulturkampf and the persecutions of the Church by the Russians) and fanatically Polish.
The Soviet armies were surprised when they advanced into Polish lands as, quite unlike in Russia and the Ukraine, no Poles joined their armies. They could not understand this -- didn't the Poles want to join their fantastic global communist movement? Evidently no...
however a few (and I repeat a few) Polish Jews DID join -- what reasons? I guess the same as above -- in the east the ties to this nascent Polish state were not strong and they may have felt "what difference? We can be German, Russian, Austrian, Polish". This led to a harshness of feeling in the eastern lands.
As an aside -- the communists also used Jews as a stereotype of "the capitalist enemy" - portraying the Rothschilds as the master puppeteers. So the Jews were stereotyped in two utterly conflicting stereotypes and attacked by both
A lot of the anti-semitism that is identified arose there in the East due to these reasons I give above
======================
Post the war, Poland lost all of it's lands in the East -- this is still a tragedy at the back of their minds, because the cities of Vilnius (Wilno) and Lwów (Lviv) were centres of Polish culture for centuries. The Poles were pushed west and many of those from Kresy came to live in Wrocław and in the "reclaimed territories" of the west. They were angry and had lost everything. They blamed the communists of course and the communists knew this. Plus, also remember what I pointed out in a post above -- the majority of Jews who remained in Poland after it had fallen to the Soviets were die-hard communists, so now in many minds the idea Jews=communist came to be firmly fixed
And in 1968, the communists to save their own butts (the Poles were appalled at their army's involvement in suppressing the Prague Spring and would have joined in possibly) threw the remaining Jews (40,000) into the firing line (not literally).
What is the state of Jews in modern-day Poland? Well there are next to no Jews left, but there is a sense that Poland has lost something, along with Kresy.
Well, as I'm neither Polish nor Jewish, I hope I can say as a roughly impartial observer that you, personally have nothing to be ashamed of. Neither do Zionists if by that means you mean people who wanted to move to Israel and set up the Israeli state
These people who profited were profiteers, robbers, what-have-you and cannot be taken as representatives of their communities.
anyway, when I came here to stay last year I noticed that Poland has a lot more blonde-n-blue-eyed folks than Germany. And most of the Nutzi top-leadership were actually dark-haired or like the Fuhro were short -- hardly stereotypes of the "glorious Aryan".
how could that idiot come up with his Aryan beliefs by attacking Russians who were more stereotypically Aryan???
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.