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Vatican increases pressure to allow Latin mass
Reuters ^ | 5/13/2011 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 05/13/2011 8:27:14 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

Vatican increases pressure to allow Latin mass

Photo
7:37am EDT

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican told Catholic bishops around the world on Friday they had to obey a papal order allowing priests to say the old-style Latin mass for traditionalist Catholics, whether they liked it or not.

The Vatican issued an "instruction" to bishops as a follow-up to a 2007 papal decree authorizing the wider adoption of the Latin Mass, which was in universal use before the 1962-1965 Vatican Council introduced masses in local languages.

...The five-page instruction from the Vatican's doctrinal department, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, made it clear that the pope wants bishops to follow his orders.

...While couched in polite, institutional language, the instruction said local parishes had to insert a Latin mass into their liturgical schedules if tradionalist faithful wanted it.

...A Vatican official said recently that only a third of the world's bishops responded to a Vatican questionnaire and that prejudice against the old mass was "still widespread."

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Theology; Worship
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1 posted on 05/13/2011 8:27:16 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

HOORAY!


2 posted on 05/13/2011 8:28:38 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: Dudoight

Benedict the Great.


3 posted on 05/13/2011 8:31:31 AM PDT by Argus
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN.
4 posted on 05/13/2011 8:33:38 AM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I remember we used to call it “High Mass”.

Does that ring a bell with anyone?


5 posted on 05/13/2011 8:34:12 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: faucetman

>>Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN. <<

I don’t see how that follows. “Speaking in Tongues” is a (frequently misunderstood) reference to gifts from God (teaching is one of the greatest).

If you are talking about the Church’s objection to “Charismatic” movements (which are appalling), that is an entirely different matter.

Or you were joking and I missed it...


6 posted on 05/13/2011 8:36:57 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: faucetman

Nonsense.


7 posted on 05/13/2011 8:39:46 AM PDT by pgkdan ( "Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine / There's always laughter and good red wine / ...Belloc)
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To: freedumb2003
Q. Why did the man carry a ladder to Church?

A. He heard it was going to be a High Mass.

That's what passed as 3rd grade Catholic School humor in the early 60's.

8 posted on 05/13/2011 8:42:13 AM PDT by pgkdan ( "Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine / There's always laughter and good red wine / ...Belloc)
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To: freedumb2003
I remember we used to call it “High Mass”.

Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Yes. Our parish does one every first and third Sunday of the month:


9 posted on 05/13/2011 8:43:54 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM ("Sola Ecclesia")
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
We've had a Latin Mass at my parish for at least the last 20 years. It used to be celebrated weekly but now is held on the first Sunday of each month. We have an excellent Schola who sing a chant during the Post-Communion. I served as cantor at this Mass for many years.

Lamh Foistenach Abu!
10 posted on 05/13/2011 8:46:16 AM PDT by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines, RVN '69 - St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle!)
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To: pgkdan

>>That’s what passed as 3rd grade Catholic School humor in the early 60’s.<<

I think that was where we got to say “D@mn” and “H3ll” without getting in trouble.


11 posted on 05/13/2011 8:47:05 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

God Bless Pope Benedict XVI.


12 posted on 05/13/2011 8:50:16 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: faucetman
Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN.

That statement simply DOES NOT reflect reality.

13 posted on 05/13/2011 8:53:29 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I am an advocate of the Tridentine Mass but have never personally attended a High Mass, and only one Missa Cantata (sung solo by the priest). Boy, would I like to visit!
14 posted on 05/13/2011 8:58:36 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Please pray for your trapped bretheran on the remote island chain of Hawaii. American-bred priests have come from the disaster known as Menlo Park Seminary for the past 40 years. A Latin Mass to them? They think it was stopped somewhere along 1362 (and a hearty good riddance!) And the foreign priests from the Philippines are poorly trained in liturgy, let alone Latin and Gregorian. We are trapped unlike you folks on the Mainland who can drive somewhere. But how magnificent is our 83 year old Papa, writing books for us and giving us the treasure of the ages in Moto Proprio.


15 posted on 05/13/2011 8:58:48 AM PDT by jobim
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To: faucetman

The translation of every word is in a book anyone can buy.


16 posted on 05/13/2011 9:03:08 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: freedumb2003

Wrong.

Latin Mass is not High Mass, which is a more ceremonial form of Mass.
High and low Masses can be in Latin.


17 posted on 05/13/2011 9:06:42 AM PDT by oldbill
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To: jobim

Interesting I hope things improve. Not really much better in many more rural areas of the mainland, distant from big cities (of course, big cities tend to have both the best and the worst of things).


18 posted on 05/13/2011 9:07:33 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: oldbill

That makes sense.

I have to assume they merged the 2 in my particular parish. But I was young then.


19 posted on 05/13/2011 9:12:04 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: faucetman

Oh thank you for my best laugh of the day so far. Where in the world did you find such a clever joke? Is it your own?


20 posted on 05/13/2011 9:13:50 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Campion
The translation of every word is in a book anyone can buy.

In fact, prior to Vatican II, every Sunday missal had the English translation. I was an altar boy back in the 60's. My first few years were during the old Latin masses. I loved it. Took a little while to learn all that Latin though. I would love to see a return of at least one Latin mass a week offered in our Diocese.

21 posted on 05/13/2011 9:18:14 AM PDT by mtg
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To: steve86
A bit of clarification on terminology. A High Mass and a Missa Cantata are the same thing, a sung Mass without a deacon and subdeacon. I think that what you have in mind is a Solemn Mass, which is a sung Mass with a deacon and subdeacon. [A note: According to the universal law incense should actually only be used at the Solemn Mass but the U.S. got an indult to use it at the High Mass.]
22 posted on 05/13/2011 9:49:26 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: freedumb2003
I remember we used to call it “High Mass”.

High Mass is sung (chanted), Low Mass is said.

Latin Mass rocks!!!

23 posted on 05/13/2011 10:08:26 AM PDT by pbear8 (the Lord is my light and my salvation)
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To: Petrosius
I appreciate any erudition on this although I have never been to a Latin Mass with either a deacon or subdeacon or incense, for that matter! I'm reading various things about High Mass vs. M.S.
24 posted on 05/13/2011 10:50:40 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: lastchance; Campion; ArrogantBustard; pgkdan; freedumb2003

Not a joke. I know that it is common in the Catholic church to NOT actually read the bible. So it is common that many Catholics aren’t aware of what the bible actually says.

This is just to advocate reading God’s word.

tongues in the bible has two meanings.
1. Referring to known foreign languages
2. Referring to a spiritual gift and language for personal prayer to God.

I don’t think anyone can deny that Latin is a foreign language. As a spoken language, it is virtually a dead language.

In either case, speaking in tongues is not allowed in the church without interpreters. That is, people to translate into a commonly known language, by the hearers, for the reasons explained in the bible, in First Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 14:
27. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

1 Corinthians 14:
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Meaning interpreters.


25 posted on 05/13/2011 11:01:11 AM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
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To: faucetman

Yours is rather tortured understanding of the Bible:

1) Does that mean that if I go to Mass in an ethnic neighborhood and they do a mass in the language of the congregation — and do not provide an interpreter, they are FORBIDDEN because I do not speak that language? I don’t think so.

2) The rest of the passages you quote deal with the “speaking in tongues” and are a follow-up to what I spoke of.

3) This is Catholicism — the Pontiff is charged with first and foremost establishing a working interpretation of Scripture for the Church.

I could grab a handful of Bible quotes and make them anything I want them to say. That isn’t the point of the OP, nor the underlying issue.


26 posted on 05/13/2011 11:11:01 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: faucetman
I know that it is common in the Catholic church to NOT actually read the bible

Not a Roman Catholic myself, but you can't be this ignorant.

27 posted on 05/13/2011 11:11:54 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: mtg

Latin is a very cool language.

It also continues to be the worldwide language of medicine and law.

I wish I could speak it better but I can’t even seem to master Spanish and my in-laws are all in Mexico!


28 posted on 05/13/2011 11:12:51 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: faucetman
Not a joke. I know that it is common in the Catholic church to NOT actually read the bible.

BWAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

I can safely ignore whatever follows ...

29 posted on 05/13/2011 11:13:22 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: faucetman
Not a joke. I know that it is common in the Catholic church to NOT actually read the bible.

BWAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

I can safely ignore whatever follows ...

30 posted on 05/13/2011 11:13:31 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: KC Burke

Thank you.


31 posted on 05/13/2011 11:16:15 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: mtg

>>In fact, prior to Vatican II...<<

I remember my Parish priest’s guide to the Vaticans:

Vatican I - Old School Priests, Nuns with rulers, Mass in Latin, etc.

Vatican II — the “cool” young priests (like the then-young Bing Crosby in “Going My Way”), Mass in English, Nuns with rulers, etc.

Vatican III — Bishops and priests can have wives

Vatican IV — Bishops and priests can have husbands


32 posted on 05/13/2011 11:17:05 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Brian, not to nitpick, but the Holy Father is Pope Benedict XVI, not XVL (I'm pretty sure that XVL isn't even a Roman numeral).
33 posted on 05/13/2011 11:17:19 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: ArrogantBustard

>>I can safely ignore whatever follows ...<<

People who think when they read the King James version of the Bible they are reading “The” Bible crack me up in general.

Scripture is always within an interpretive framework.


34 posted on 05/13/2011 11:19:22 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: wagglebee

>>I’m pretty sure that XVL isn’t even a Roman numeral<<

Hmm — 50 minus 5 minus 10 — or is it 50 minus 5 plus 5 minus 10 —

I come up with eleventy-seven


35 posted on 05/13/2011 11:21:40 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (osama gets 72 virgins. We get 72 versions...)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I love how often people who “know” so much about about other religions and the Bible will then pretend Jesus did a grape juice miracle, since they “read” so very well.


36 posted on 05/13/2011 11:23:55 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: ArrogantBustard

Do what I do, just ignore the whole thing...LOL.

My kids’ Catholic school must not have that memo that says we can’t read the Bible. They each have a verse to memorize each week, and my 6th grader is quite proficient in reciting large verses to me on a regular basis. She also just received the ‘Covenant Award,’ voted the girl in her class who follows God’s teachings (more specifically, the 10 Commandments—wait, don’t those come from the Bible? hmmm...)


37 posted on 05/13/2011 11:30:39 AM PDT by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Change everything you are, everything you were, your number has been called.)
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To: freedumb2003

lol!!!


38 posted on 05/13/2011 11:30:45 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: KC Burke
Shame on you - do NOT underestimate The Faucetman
39 posted on 05/13/2011 11:32:49 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma
I still have my dog-eared and highlighted study Bible from high-school.

Obviously, I didn't actually read it. Oh, no. Catholics NEVER do that. I just dog-eared random pages, and scribbled mindlessly with the highlighter.

BWAHAHAHAHahahahaha!

40 posted on 05/13/2011 11:34:28 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa
There's also the strange idea that Latin is a "foreign" language.

Such nonsense!

Quite the contrary, Latin is the native language of the Western Church.

41 posted on 05/13/2011 11:36:28 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I think my high school Bible is somewhere at my parents’. I thought I saw it there in the not too distant past. If I recall, mine was a little worn looking too. I must have been sitting on it to see a little better in class because I was such a shorty ;)


42 posted on 05/13/2011 11:37:50 AM PDT by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Change everything you are, everything you were, your number has been called.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

that is a most excellent point


43 posted on 05/13/2011 11:38:13 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: freedumb2003

It does t me, freedumb. We are lucky to assist at a sung High Mass every Sunday and Holy Day.

My boys serve on the altar, and the girls’ schola is simply magnificent. They keep hoping to get a boys’ schola going, but all the boys want to serve on the altar. BTW, of the dozen or so boys, 5 of them have admitted considering the priesthood. One young man is already at the minor seminary, and I’d say 2 of the others are quite seriously considering it.

Sometimes I have to shake my head and pinch myself to make sure it’s not all a dream. We are unbelievably fortunate.

God bless Pope Benedict.

Regards,


44 posted on 05/13/2011 11:38:47 AM PDT by VermiciousKnid (Sic narro nos totus!)
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To: faucetman

Does that mean Jesus was wrong when He spoke (vernacular)Aramaic at home with Mom, and (sacred) Hebrew when He went to the temple to worship?

Regards,


45 posted on 05/13/2011 11:43:54 AM PDT by VermiciousKnid (Sic narro nos totus!)
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To: VermiciousKnid

I think Hebrew was the common language of Jews at that time. Everyone in the Synagogue or temple spoke Hebrew. If everyone in your church speaks Latin, and an unsaved person off the street who comes into your church is likely to speak Latin, then you are all set. Or if you want to, have the priest give the mass in Latin and simultaneously have an interpreter translate it into English.

Thank you for your reasoned response.


46 posted on 05/13/2011 12:29:10 PM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
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To: ArrogantBustard
I grew up in a very Catholic area. I attended Latin mass myself. (The part where they asked for money was always in English) The local church had a Catholic grammar school and many kids in secular public school were released early on Wednesdays for religious instructions. In the secular public school fish was always on the menu on Fridays. One of my best friends attended a local Catholic high school. My wife and her family were all Catholic.

I am aware of what is taught in the Catholic church and how it operates. I think it's great if in your church you actually read the bible and live your life according to the bible. If so, you must agree that I quoted scripture accurately and my point was well taken as backed up by scripture.

47 posted on 05/13/2011 12:41:37 PM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
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To: faucetman

“Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN.”

Once in a while you really do see a completely different take on what the Church supposedly does wrong on FR. Most of the time it’s the same old arguments over and over, but that is a very new and fresh take on the subject.

The missal has latin to english translation on facing pages. Problem solved! No more “forbidden tongues”.

Freegards


48 posted on 05/13/2011 12:47:12 PM PDT by Ransomed
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To: KC Burke
Not taking offense at your calling me ignorant. I will just say, you are uninformed. See post #47.

I know, it sounds absurd. They study Catholic dogma from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Much like the Mormons study “The Book of Mormon”.

I was just making the point that Latin mass is not biblical without interpreters. SO IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE. Not me, the word of God says so.

49 posted on 05/13/2011 12:51:31 PM PDT by faucetman (Just the facts ma'am, just the facts)
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To: faucetman

Hebrew was the common language of Jews in Judea, but not in Nazareth (Galilee). The two languages are unrelated, and though Jesus was certainly able to speak and understand Hebrew, His mother tongue was indeed Aramaic.

Since you mentioned an interpreter (unnecessary, BTW...anyone who doesn’t understand what is being said can have a Missal right in front of him), I thought I’d tell you that for the first time in my life I’ve been able to see what truly bi-lingual people experience when they listen to one of the languages they speak. While the Ordinaries of the Mass (those are the parts that do not change from week to week) are being sung, I no longer have to translate them; I am able to understand the LATIN without switching it back to English. It’s quite an odd feeling, actually...very weird.

Unfortunately for me, Latin was removed from most school curricula just as I was getting into high school. Thankfully, the tide has turned, and my own son’s (Catholic) high school offers a solid four-year curriculum in Latin. HE will truly “speak Latin.” My own knowledge is due entirely to exposure in church and in literature.

Regards,


50 posted on 05/13/2011 12:54:22 PM PDT by VermiciousKnid (Sic narro nos totus!)
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