Posted on 05/16/2011 10:48:24 AM PDT by bronxville
“Now consider these numbers from a 2004 study in the journal of Child Abuse and Neglect: “Sexually abused adolescents were much more likely to report having had ‘thoughts about killing themselves’ [73% abused, 25% non-abused]; to have “made plans” [55% abused, 12% non-abused]; to have “made threats” [45% abused, 9% non-abused]; and to claim attempts to kill themselves [24% abused, 5% non-abused]....The strong association between sexual abuse and suicide attempts, even after controlling for depressive symptomatology, hopelessness and family functioning, is in agreement with other studies....”
If clergy sex abuse were a disease, we would likely see national telethons to combat it because its impact is so devastating and its prevalence so widespread. Yet, even in the face of such alarming numbers, Baptist leaders blindly talk of “congregational autonomy” rather than taking action to protect kids.
*The results of this survey were reported in the book, Ministerial Ethics by Joe Trull and James Carter (2d ed. 2004), and in The Baptist Standard editorial, “Churches must act to prevent clergy sexual abuse,” 4/22/2002.
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/alarmingnumbers.html
Yet, even in the face of such alarming numbers, Baptist leaders blindly talk of “congregational autonomy” rather than taking action to protect kids.
Another survey which was published in the editorial of the Baptist Standard. They obviously trusted the people who did the survey.
Ping to #161
Thank you for the spotlight on predators elsewhere. An honest look at clergy/child sexual abuse would look at ALL Christian denominations, and would carefully examine the egregious problem in the public schools.
Sadly, very few are honest.
Yes, I know you would minimize the problems faced by Catholics by trying to say Baptists are worse., or pretending that congregational autonomy was invented to hide Baptist predators rather than a fundamental belief of Baptists.
Remember - YOU have as much authority over a Baptist congregation as does the President of the SBC - so why don’t YOU deal with whatever problem you think exists?
“There are no accurate numbers due to the “Hide and Seek”.”
No. There are no accurate numbers with anyone. The recent survey of Catholics relied on self-reporting, which may help explain why the problem went away 30 years ago...no one will self-report a sexual predator problem.
You base your ‘hide & seek’ claims on nothing - there is no one who can hide another and no benefit to doing so in a congregational model.
Based on insurance claims and court cases, the Catholic Church has faced a deeper problem than Baptists, but again, I don’t see it as a Baptist vs Catholic issue, and you will not see me rejoicing when someone files a claim against Catholics. Either way, the name of Jesus suffers, so there is NOTHING to rejoice in.
But it revolts me when people try to pretend the problem isn’t a problem, or that it is just a bit of touching. I don’t want a Baptist preacher touching my 13 year old daughter, and I am disgusted when a priest fondles a 15 year old boy.
When 3/4 of cases involve a child 14 or less, it is sex with kids and it is disgusting. When it involves a 25 year old woman and a 30 year old deacon, it brings shame and harm to the name of Jesus and cannot be excused away.
I think a higher percentage of homosexuals are drawn to the priesthood than to being a Baptist for some of the same reasons teachers draw more than truck drivers, and actors draw more than carpenters. There is both a theatrical aspect and an authority aspect that is bigger and therefor stronger in Catholicism than with Baptists. Most Baptist pastors aren’t viewed as strong authority figures. Most can be fired at any time, either by the deacons or by the congregation. And the Lord’s Supper in a Baptist church involves a short prayer - nothing about offering a sacrifice of the actual flesh and blood of Jesus. That is why, IMHO, the Catholic priesthood draws more homosexuals than Baptist churches do.
It isn’t doctrinal, and it isn’t pro/con, it just means one form of worship attracts homosexuals more than another - IMHO, and no, I haven’t studied the issue. Just my guess.
But either way, ANY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT SHAMES THE NAME OF JESUS AND IS DEPLORABLE! Baptist, Catholic or Pentecostal, ANY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT SHAMES THE NAME OF JESUS AND IS DEPLORABLE!
Mr Rogers wrote - “...And remember, 2/3s of the allegations were substantiated by the Catholic Church - and good on the Catholic Church for not hiding that figure.”
2/3 allegations of what number, important when talking numbers, bearing in mind that this information was given to JJ and not in their Bishop Conference Review, as quoted as the source (no link) by WaterBoard in post 8. Bottomline numbers - “...Police were contacted regarding 1,021 individuals and of these, 384 were charged resulting in 252 convictions and 100 prison sentences...” And a big thanks for trusting the Bishops numbers (given to JJ) with which I’m sure you’re being consistent. Yes, for sure one can’t accuse them of “hiding”. The CC has a known reputation for their record-keeping thoughout the ages, some not so good, but it’s all kept.
Mr Rogers wrote - “Baptist Hide and Seek” - There is nothing to hide. There is no one with authority above the local congregation. As pointed out above, the SBC doesn’t even track who is ordained, nor does it control who is or is not ordained.”
And again, hiding, is a problem as indicated in previous links provided, though I’m sure they’re doing the best they can. Frankly, my greatest fear are the Secular Schools where the numbers are mushrooming each year, yet being ignored. Their numbers are most likely higher than all Churches put together ever were...
Mr Rogers wrote - “On my computer, it displays in the same size type.”
WaterBoard HEADLINE -
“Wow, that is an absolute lie and easily disprovable by the Church’s own reports. This just re-victimizes the children over again to say they were not ‘raped’ by priests. Is the Catholic League now saying that children can chose who they sleep with since its not considered ‘rape’ by them? “
bronxville wrote - ““Of course “accusation” and “alleged” is in the fine print BUT did he preface that in his portrayal which is the point of contention (another being no link). No, of course he didn’t otherwise his fake stats would be utterly useless, and that’s the deception, that’s the LIE. The LIE committed by omission in order to slander. That’s how the left works. See post 21, again used as a fact in order to deceive. Poster in #25 was deceived and I’m sure there are others...that’s how it works. IOW, people with an agenda don’t read the fine print and the left aka WaterBoard know it. It’s how they peddle their wares.”
I documented how it was done and proved it (add another - #23 where he addressed it to himself - yet another infamous tactic). He was also confronted with his deception in many posts, 51, 52, 70, 105, all were ignored. Why did he ignore them?
Anyway he’s skipped back to his soros funded haven where the groupies believe in their own truths and anyone who challenges their methodology or ideology for discussion are considered aggressors. It’s no longer necessary to have debates or discussions because all truth is relative and faith matters only inasmuch as it makes someone happy, peaceful, or has some tangible societal benefit. All faiths are right (this includes neopaganism, newagism, hermeism, witchcraft, occultism...) certain faiths are truth for one person and not another, nobody should try to influence or convert anyone else. Religions have caused all the discord in history, wars and deaths, especially the Catholic Church which must be eased out aka eliminated. I’ve even seen some shy away from the word “truth” and prefer to think of the world as manifestations of different consciousnesses. Ultimately, it becomes a case of man trying to be God. The postmodernist “thought” is to placate everyone in order to create a false sense of happiness and security. If everyone wins, then that means one cannot lose - some are afraid to claim others are wrong because it forces them to consider perhaps they also might be wrong hence the hatred toward the “aggressors” who remind them about Jesus Christ.
Bottomline - One can nuance about the “small print” but it’s the “headlines” that count. The state-run media and many leftist blogs know all about it. It’s how they whore their distorted editorials.
A message to any lurking lefties...
“ These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”
God bless you and all here.
PS: I didn’t question your relationship with WaterBoard. I was just pondering on his whereabouts but I have no doubt that he’ll be back though perhaps with a different name. :)
That is not true, and I think you know it. May God bless you and all those you love with safety, peace, prosperity, health, and wisdome, in Christ's Holy Name I ask.
“Thank you for the spotlight on predators elsewhere. An honest look at clergy/child sexual abuse would look at ALL Christian denominations, and would carefully examine the egregious problem in the public schools.
Sadly, very few are honest.”
Totally agree, the media and others want the focus on the CC only, the media in their pursuit of bringing down the CC, and others because it deflects from them. The CC makes an easy scapegoat but if we’re to lazer them then one must be consistent, because when all said and done, it’s the young who are at risk.
“Yes, I know you would minimize the problems faced by Catholics by trying to say Baptists are worse., or pretending that congregational autonomy was invented to hide Baptist predators rather than a fundamental belief of Baptists.”
That’s unfair as my posts demonstrate, while I understand your frustration, (as a Catholic, I can assure you of my complete understanding and then some), that said, this post shows a few errors/inconsistencies. I’ll be working all day and through the night with work but will respond as soon as I can.
Please remember your first posting here to WaterBoard...
Mr Rogers wrote - “WaterBoard, I’m afraid you will need to go to some posters and personally read them report. But it won’t do any good.”
Mr Rogers wrote - “Some prefer to defend their church by squeezing their eyes shut and pretending it hasn’t happened. It is hard to read when you eyes are shut.”
Mr Rogers wrote - “My calling as a Christian is to lift up Jesus, not tear down Catholics.”
“My calling as a Christian is to lift up Jesus, not tear down Catholics.”
Please be assured that my calling, as a Catholic Christian, is to lift up Jesus, not tear down Baptists or any other denomination.
“Some prefer to defend their church by squeezing their eyes shut and pretending it hasn’t happened. It is hard to read when you eyes are shut.”
No one can fault you for not weeding your own garden, nor from defending your denomination, but please permit us the same in kind, without accusing us of minimizing our problems at the expense of yours, or even implying that we’re attempting to make yours worse than, because that couldn’t be further from the truth. Some would like to put the CC in a box, label it as filth, and use it as a tool to, as may be, halt or permit discussions, much like the left use racism, but that would be irresponsible on all our parts, because then others would remain a hidden, and the youth would suffer.
Mr Rogers, I try to keep my discussions nonaccusatory and would appreciate the same in return.
God bless you and all here.
To: Mr Rogers
Mr Rogers wrote - “Remember - YOU have as much authority over a Baptist congregation as does the President of the SBC - so why don’t YOU deal with whatever problem you think exists?”
If you read the “Baptists Hide and Seek” article other Baptists are just as frustrated as you. Your other comment is perhaps an understandable frustration nevertheless it doesn’t solve the problem.
Mr Roger wrote - ““There are no accurate numbers due to the “Hide and Seek”.”” “You base your ‘hide & seek’ claims on nothing - there is no one who can hide another and no benefit to doing so in a congregational model.”
There are Baptists who don’t agree with your point of view. See the links to the article(s) and other posts discussing this problem.
Mr Roger wrote - ““No. There are no accurate numbers with anyone. The recent survey of Catholics relied on self-reporting, which may help explain why the problem went away 30 years ago...no one will self-report a sexual predator problem.”
Yet you appear to have had no hesitation in using those very numbers for your societal good. I even thanked you for trusting the Bishops numbers (given to JJ), you also praised them for not “hiding” them. See post #165 and previous post(s). I’m afraid you’re being inconsistent and disingenuous here.
Mr Rogers - “Based on insurance claims and court cases, the Catholic Church has faced a deeper problem than Baptists, but again, I don’t see it as a Baptist vs Catholic issue, and you will not see me rejoicing when someone files a claim against Catholics. Either way, the name of Jesus suffers, so there is NOTHING to rejoice in.””
Mr Rogers - ““But it revolts me when people try to pretend the problem isn’t a problem, or that it is just a bit of touching. I don’t want a Baptist preacher touching my 13 year old daughter, and I am disgusted when a priest fondles a 15 year old boy.”” ““When 3/4 of cases involve a child 14 or less, it is sex with kids and it is disgusting. When it involves a 25 year old woman and a 30 year old deacon, it brings shame and harm to the name of Jesus and cannot be excused away.””
Mr Rogers - “I think a higher percentage of homosexuals are drawn to the priesthood than to being a Baptist for some of the same reasons teachers draw more than truck drivers, and actors draw more than carpenters. There is both a theatrical aspect and an authority aspect that is bigger and therefor stronger in Catholicism than with Baptists. Most Baptist pastors aren’t viewed as strong authority figures. Most can be fired at any time, either by the deacons or by the congregation. And the Lord’s Supper in a Baptist church involves a short prayer - nothing about offering a sacrifice of the actual flesh and blood of Jesus. That is why, IMHO, the Catholic priesthood draws more homosexuals than Baptist churches do. It isn’t doctrinal, and it isn’t pro/con, it just means one form of worship attracts homosexuals more than another - IMHO, and no, I haven’t studied the issue. Just my guess.”
See Post 159: - Penn State professor Philip Jenkens reported that between 2 to 3 percent of Protestant clergy are pedophiles. His same study reported that less than 1.7 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles. There is simply no reason to think that clergy child molesters are solely a Catholic problem. - *The results of this survey were reported in the book, Ministerial Ethics by Joe Trull and James Carter (2d ed. 2004), and in The Baptist Standard editorial, “Churches must act to prevent clergy sexual abuse,” 4/22/2002. - (source: The voice of SNAP Baptist)
They obviously trusted the report, they were right, as it was never challenged - the authors are Protestants.
Mr Rogers - “But either way, ANY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT SHAMES THE NAME OF JESUS AND IS DEPLORABLE! Baptist, Catholic or Pentecostal, ANY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT SHAMES THE NAME OF JESUS AND IS DEPLORABLE!””
Amen
Yes, it’s all very revolting, as Catholics have been saying for years. We were all relieved and thankful when the strict program was implemented in the CC, mainline Protestant Churches, and other Institutions over a decade ago. They’re constantly updating their guidelines as new data arises.
God bless you and all here.
Examples of Institutional Conduct
Do these constitute examples of collusion with clergy sex abuse by Baptist churches and organizations?
“Baptist General Convention of Texas: Keeps a confidential file of ministers reported by churches for sexual abuse, “including child molestation” and for whom there is an admission, “substantial evidence,” or a “confirmed” report from the church. The assessment of “substantial evidence” was reviewed by the BGCT’s own attorneys. But even in these rare circumstances— i.e., when a church itself reports a minister and when the BGCT determined there was substantial evidence — the minister’s name simply sits in a file and people in the pews are not warned.”
“Baylor University (the largest Baptist school in the world): Took no action when a student reported sexual assault by ministerial student Matt Baker. Reportedly, university officials asked the student not to contact police. They typed up a report and put it in a file....
...Despite that assault report in their own file cabinet, and despite the fact that Baker had already been twice reported for sexual abuse at First Baptist of Waco (ironically, the church at which every Baylor president has held membership), Baylor admitted Baker into its Truett Seminary, thereby helping to further advance his career. So, Baker was able to continue church-hopping through Baptistland while also leading “a secret life as a sexual predator.” The only thing that finally stopped his ministerial career was a murder conviction.”
“Bellevue Baptist Church (Memphis, TN): This flagship magachurch retains as its senior pastor a man who knowingly kept quiet about a staff minister who admitted to sexual abuse of a kid. Thereby, it sends the unmistakeable message that a clergy sex abuse cover-up is no big deal. At least 10 other church leaders and staff also knew about the child molesting minister, but they followed the example of their morally-blind pastor and kept quiet. Some tried to justify their silence by saying it was all “under the blood.””
“Calvary Baptist Church (Greenwood, IN): After the pastor of a Southern Baptist church in a nearby town was charged with child sex abuse, the pastor, ministers, and deacons of Calvary Baptist (12 of them) invited the pastor to worship at their church “anonymously.” And even after he pled guilty, he was still allowed to mix anonymously among the Calvary Baptist congregants. In what appeared as an effort to influence the judge to impose a lesser sentence, Calvary’s leaders also wrote a letter to the judge, expressing support for the preacher-predator.”
“Central Baptist Church (Southington, CT; this is a Baptist church but not Southern Baptist): After one of their ministers admitted to “kissing and fondling” a church girl, the senior pastor allowed the minister to read a letter of resignation to about 200 church members. He “admitted having a relationship with a young female church member” and he “apologized and asked for forgiveness.” Though at least 200 people then knew about the minister’s sexual abuse of a girl, the church simply allowed the minister to move on. Meanwhile, the girl was ostracized and “accused of lying.””
“Eastside Baptist Church (Henderson, TX): Lawsuit alleged that church leaders knew about pastor’s “improper behavior” but did nothing. The pastor was allowed to move on, was eventually convicted of child molestation, and admitted to molesting dozens of young boys.”
“First Baptist Church at the Mall (Lakeland, FL): Allowed Marshall Seymour to work as a volunteer youth minister despite multiple reports of “inappropriate situations” at his prior Mississippi church, despite an arrest in Alabama on charges of sexual abuse and sodomy which was plea-bargained to an assault conviction, and despite an ongoing civil lawsuit against his prior Alabama church, alleging molestation of a 9-year-old.”
“First Baptist Church of Atlanta (Georgia): Hired a children’s minister who was known (by another minister) to have abused a church kid in Dallas, Texas. Did FBC-Atlanta not bother to check with the man’s prior church or did the prior church not tell? When SNAP members tried to leaflet FBC-Atlanta to inform parents about the church’s prior children’s minister, church leaders ran them off the premises and even tried to bully them off a public sidewalk.”
“First Baptist Church of Benton (Arkansas): Retains as its pastor a man who kept quiet about reports of a staff minister’s sexual abuse of boys, and who even kept quiet after the minister provided him with 12 names of boys with whom he had “inappropriate contact.” Eventually, when a case could be criminally prosecuted, it came to light that the minister had sexually victimized scores of church boys over a period of 20 years. The sheriff, 3 circuit judges, a prosecutor, and many community leaders are members of this prominent church.”
“First Baptist Church of Columbia (South Carolina): Ordained a deacon into a position of trust and allowed him to work with youth even though the man had a prior child molestation conviction in Maine. Then, when multiple complaints and allegations arose against him at FBC-Columbia, “it was a ‘hey, no big deal’.” Church leaders still did not remove the man from his position of trust until after he was finally arrested, at least four years after the initial allegations at FBC-Columbia. The church was “protecting the institution at all costs.””
“First Baptist Church of Farmers Branch (Dallas, Texas): Threatened to sue a clergy molestation survivor who reported the church’s prior youth and education minister, even though the church’s music minister had known about the abuse for many years and had already made statements acknowledging it. To this day, the church chooses to retain the keep-it-quiet music minister (who allowed the molester to move on to work with children in other churches)...”
“First Baptist Church of Hesperia (Hesperia, CA): Retains Wayne Stockstill as its pastor despite his keep-it-quiet response to a report of child molestation by a deacon in his church. Stockstill’s justification was that he “erred on the side of grace.””
“First Baptist Church of Oviedo (the Orlando area, Florida): Hired a children’s minister who was known (by another minister) to have abused a kid in one of his prior Texas churches. Is this an example of “don’t ask—don’t tell” Baptist-style? Did FBC-Oviedo not bother to check with the man’s prior church, or did the prior church not tell?”
“First Baptist Church of Romeoville (Chicago, Illinois): “Knowingly placed convicted sex offender in pulpit.”
“First Baptist Church of Tyler (Texas): Hired a children’s minister who was known (by another minister) to have sexually abused a church kid in Dallas, Texas. Did FBC-Tyler not bother to check with the man’s prior church or did the prior church not tell? Did church officials tell people in the pews at FBC-Tyler about their children’s minister?”
“You wonder if those of us in a position to stop people like this from advancing in the SBC, but don’t do anything … if we become accomplices…”
Pastor Wade Burleson, Emmanuel Baptist Church, Enid, OK
“First Baptist Church of Waco (Texas): Church officials, including the former pastor and recreation minister, received 2 separate reports of sexual abuse involving Matt Baker, but they simply allowed Matt Baker to move on and “said nothing when other churches later called, interested in hiring Matt.” The pastor explained that he “didn’t want to be known as the man who ruined his career.” (Texas Monthly referred only to “the pastor;” however the church’s history indicates that the pastor during that time period was Scott Walker.) Matt Baker was later convicted of murder, and during the trial, prosecutors said they had evidence of at least 13 others, including 4 minors, whom Matt Baker was reported to have sexually assaulted and abused during his career as a Baptist preacher in Texas. His career got its start at this church: “Why didn’t Baptists bust him?”
“Florida Baptist Convention: According to a civil lawsuit, the Florida convention recruited pastor Doug Myers as a “church planter” despite reports that he left a Maryland church “amid issues with three teenage boys” and despite allegations of “unacceptable” behavior with boys at his prior Alabama church. Myers was eventually criminally convicted on molestation of a boy in Florida. The Florida Baptist Convention also invited pastor Tom Messer to be a featured speaker at the 2009 pastors’ conference, despite the many news reports of his participation in a huge, long-lasting cover-up of the prior pastor’s child sex crimes.”
“Gracepoint Baptist Church (Memphis, TN)(formerly Walnut Grove Baptist Church): Kept Steven Haney as its pastor even after it was reported that he had sexually abused a teen boy in the church. Years later, Haney was convicted on sexual abuse of 2 more teen boys (and no telling how many more were abused in the interim). While the trial was pending, victims received mail from Haney’s supporters — mail that the prosecutor described as “unconscionable.” In the end, rather than learning any lesson from their failure or expressing any remorse, the church decided to put it in the past fast by changing its name to Gracepoint Baptist (and thereby also maneuvering to lessen the likelihood of legal recourse by any other victims of Haney).”
“Great Hills Baptist Church (Austin, TX): Even as Austin police were asking that any other young victims of the church’s arrested minister be helped in coming forward, the church held a rally in support of the minister. That minister was eventually convicted on 9 counts of child sex abuse, and a few years later, the church had a second minister convicted on child sex crimes. Is it any wonder that the church attracted a second predator, given what strong public support it showed for a prior predator?”
“Heritage Fellowship (Gainesville, GA)(formerly Emmanuel Baptist Church): Hired a youth minister after a prior criminal charge of child molestation (on which he was acquitted), and after the minister molested more boys on which he was convicted, the church simply changed its name.”
“Paramount Baptist Church (Amarillo, TX): Lawsuit alleged that “numerous parents, teachers and others had complained to church leaders” that a Sunday School teacher “had engaged in inappropriate sexual touching of children on the church premises.” But according to the lawsuit, parents who complained were asked to leave the church, and the teacher continued working with kids. More kids were molested, and the teacher was eventually convicted.”
“Southmont Baptist Church (Denton, TX): Gathered a $50,000 love offering for their former pastor, who resigned after news was made public that he had paid “hush money” to settle a lawsuit alleging sexual abuse of a 14-year-old church girl. The pastor made an apology at a church banquet and confessed “that proper boundaries were not kept.””
“Trinity Baptist Church (Jacksonville, FL): A TV station in Jacksonville, Florida, reported that Trinity leaders “knew for years their former pastor was a pedophile, but covered it up for fear public knowledge would harm the church’s ministry, shipping the minister to Germany where he served 10 years as a missionary, possibly with access to other children.” Trinity continues to retain as its senior pastor the man who, according to news reports and a “smoking-gun” tape-recording was at the helm of that reported cover-up. Accusers said “it was well known” by other church officials as well, and that they knew for decades.”
“Victory Baptist Church (Andalusia, AL): Allowed pastor Ralph Lee Aaron to move on to another church after a complaint about inappropriate conduct with a kid. So, they got the guy off their own turf, but what did they do to warn others? A few years later, Aaron was charged on numerous counts of sexual abuse and sexual torture of 8 to 12 year-old boys.”
“Wayside Baptist Church (Miami, Florida): Church members chartered a bus to go to the jail to show support for their youth minister before his sentencing on sex crimes against numerous teen church boys. Apparently they had no problem forgiving the molesting minister “after all, he had repented.” The boy who brought the minister’s serial sex abuse to light said what was nearly as damaging as the abuse was the fact that even after the abuse was exposed and admitted, the church made more of an effort to forgive and support the abuser than to heal the abused.”
“Westside Victory Baptist Church (Fort Worth, TX): Their pastor was convicted of sexually abusing five boys, and 13 of the 25 charges were for aggravated sexual assault. “Besides being abused… Neathery’s victims were ostracized by members of Westside Victory Baptist Church where... the abuse occurred.””
““For many years, churches seemed to say to offenders, ‘We won’t say anything if you won’t say anything, and you go on down the road.’ Consequently, churches ‘ended up passing perpetrators to other churches’.” Sonny Spurger, Baptist General Convention of Texas.”
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_institutions.html
Literally dozens of little boys were sexually abused, molestations, aggravated assaults, murder, and coverups, in those few cases. Most of them could have been prevented.
“Experts warn the lack of such a hierarchy in Baptist life… makes Baptist churches unwitting accomplices to predator pastors who are recycled from one unsuspecting congregation to another.”
Greg Warner, Associated Baptist Press
“You wonder if those of us in a position to stop people like this from advancing in the SBC, but don’t do anything … we become accomplices…”
Pastor Wade Burleson, Emmanuel Baptist Church, Enid, OK
I applaud the Pastors for speaking out. God bless them.
Child molestation whether by Catholics or any other denomination is totally repugnant.
Examples of Individual Conduct
Do these constitute examples of Baptist leaders’ collusion with clergy sex abuse?
“Murrill Boitnott (former senior pastor of Wayside Baptist Church in Miami and currently the president of Macedonian Call Ministries): Even after staff minister Keith Geren admitted to sexually abusing 10 teen boys, pastor Boitnott couldn’t bring himself to recommend that Geren be fired or even that he have no further contact with church youth. Later, it came out that Geren had also abused boys during his prior stint at First Baptist Church of Lakeland where Boitnott was also working at the time.”
“Richard Land (president of the SBC’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission): Wagged his finger at Catholics and bragged that Southern Baptists had only a couple of high-profile child-sex-abuse scandals...in the late ‘80s, and that they had focused on the problem after that.” Of course, there had already been way more than “a couple” cases when Land said this, and by now, there have been many, many more. Yet, Land seems utterly blind to the extent of clergy sex abuse within Southern Baptist ranks. And what has he actually done to implement effective action for routing out Baptist clergy predators?”
“Tom Messer (pastor of Trinity Baptist Church in Jacksonville, FL): According to news reports and a “smoking-gun” tape-recording, pastor Tom Messer “knew for years” that the church’s founding pastor was a pedophile and participated in covering it up.”
“Wayne Stockstill (former 2-term president of the California Southern Baptist Convention and senior pastor of FBC-Hesperia): Rationalized his do-nothingness by saying he “erred on the side of grace” when he kept quiet about a deacon’s molestation of children in his church. Police believe there were more victims.”
continued...
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_individuals.html
God bless us all.
Yes, your anti-baptist website has over 30 cases of alleged collusion...
Now, what else do you note, or should you...
Does the Baptist General Convention of Texas move offenders to new churches? No, nor could they since they have no authority to move anyone. Do they falsify data? Do they take someone known to abuse children and move him to another congregation? Could they, if they wanted to?
The answer is no. Cardinal Law doesn’t live in Texas, and there are no Cardinals among Baptists. CONGREGATIONS can and do sometimes do wrong, and they pay the price - spiritually and financially, if found guilty. With 44,000 SBC congregations, and 80,000 Baptist congregations, OF COURSE there are some who cover up their problem, just as there are many more who will cover up financial wrongdoing.
But the SBC does not assist any cover-up. The Texas association doesn’t assist in covering up. The strongest complaint you can make against them is that they don’t publish a list in public...so, where is the publicly kept list of Catholics priests and bishops who have abused others?
Oh wait, that probably isn’t legal for Catholics to do either.
If the strongest complaint you can make is that Texas doesn’t publish a list on the Internet, you don’t have much of a cover-up or collusion.
Sadly, it is not. The link has several links to news articles detailing how even though abusers were known to churches in a position to warn the next or following churches where the molesters worked, no warning was made. The link also gives names dates and news stories of serial abusers who were allowed to continue, even though their activities were known. In some cases, the church members stated that they did not believe the accusers.
It's wrong to characterize that as an "anti-Baptist website" when all churches, including the Catholic church, are examined. Reports from local newspapers of legal action taken LONG after the initial behavior was known to local church authorities. As you mentioned, the weakness in the Baptists is lack of formal organization, so a news article about an abuser in Florida, for instance, does not follow an abuser to, say, New York.
What are the Baptists going to do about this? Nothing, I presume, simply keep on keeping on, and let abusers go from church to church...
“The link has several links to news articles detailing how even though abusers were known to churches in a position to warn the next or following churches where the molesters worked, no warning was made. The link also gives names dates and news stories of serial abusers who were allowed to continue, even though their activities were known. In some cases, the church members stated that they did not believe the accusers. “
My point is not that there is no problem in Baptist churches. The accusation is that the SBC plays “Hide & Seek”, or that the SBC engages in collusion (1 “a secret agreement, especially for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy”, 2 “a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement”).
That doesn’t happen largely because there is no hierarchy that can direct member congregations to do anything. Any person, including Christians, can do evil. And not everyone in any denomination is a Christian, per Jesus.
In a hierarchical system, there are higher ups who can transfer someone, or try to silence someone so someone else can advance. In a congregational model, that person doesn’t exist. The President of the SBC has no authority over any congregation but his own, so he cannot use his ‘office’ to silence someone, or transfer someone, etc. He can WITHIN his congregation, or he could lie and recommend someone for a new job, but he doesn’t have the option of saying, “Let’s move Brother X to Canada...”
There are other challenges in handling these cases that apply to Baptists and Catholics alike. If you learn about wrongdoing while counseling someone, what can you make public? If you have evidence outside the counseling (or confession), you can act on that, and there are some steps you can take just based on what you were told...but there are other steps that are not an option.
Take my wife as an example. She is an RN. Suppose she learns the pastor of a church has a STD. Can she tell the man’s congregation about it? Legally, no. Not unless it involves underage or non-consensual sex. What about drug use? Same.
You can also run into ‘he said, she said’, or ‘I know, he knows’. One of the cases mentioned in the link involved a music minister who had specific knowledge. The court settlement specified that no one else knew (it happened in 1969). Unless the girl was willing to testify, he had nothing that would stand up to public scrutiny.
Without knowing more abut the situation, he may or may not have had the basis for public action. It is possible - I do not know the specifics - that the girl would have denied the sex, leaving him with making ‘false accusations’. What were his legal and moral obligations in that situation? I don’t know. Looking back, it may have been more moral to make the accusation, accept being fired for making ‘false accusation’, and leave at least some trail in case there was a repeat offense later. OTOH, if he went public and the girl committed suicide, what then? And in 1969, would any paper trail have followed someone state to state, particularly if the accusation had been found to be ‘false’?
“What are the Baptists going to do about this? Nothing, I presume, simply keep on keeping on, and let abusers go from church to church...”
If there is evidence, most congregations will turn it over for investigations (based on the congregations I’ve been a member in during my years moving around with the military). If there is a credible accusation but insufficient evidence, then the legal options narrow. Presumption of innocence. Can you ruin a man’s life based on accusations you find credible but cannot prove? If you do, can you be successfully sued in court? If the man confesses it in counseling with the head pastor of a large congregation, but will deny it in public, what evidence do you have?
In a hierarchical structure, you CAN take action...or you can cover it up and transfer the man elsewhere. Based on the number of court cases the Catholic Church has lost, I wouldn’t assume a hierarchical model provides more protection than a congregational model...particularly if it involves male-male contact.
In the Baptist model, that hierarchy ends at the congregation, so the congregation either takes appropriate action, or not. That makes it harder to track predators, but frankly, it makes it harder to deliberately hide them in collusion with the predator, which seems to have happened in the Catholic hierarchy.
Here is a very telling statement from your post:
“Presumption of innocence. Can you ruin a man’s life based on accusations you find credible but cannot prove?”
Apparently, in the “hierarchical model” you can. Furthermore, it is likely that the local governance church will decide that a vulnerable victim is not credible for any number of reasons, and protect the perpetrator. Not only that, the local church can enable a perpetrator to move to another location, provide him with a position, and refuse to reveal it. As the news articles I posted showed, that has been done and recently.
Let us agree on this: there are weaknesses in both the local and the hierarchical models, weaknesses that in different ways, further harm victims. Thank you for acknowledging that there is a problem in Baptist churches — my point again is that there are problems in ALL churches, and that the relentless, at times vicious, and always one-sided focus on the Catholic church is wrong.
As I have said before, my favorite Baptist is my son in law, a deeply spiritual man who lives in a solid marriage with my Catholic daughter, raising three children who worship Christ in the home and in their churches. It is my opinion that our Lord Jesus wants us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and not to do harm to one another.
Mr Rogers wrote - “Remember - YOU have as much authority over a Baptist congregation as does the President of the SBC - so why don’t YOU deal with whatever problem you think exists?”
If you read the “Baptists Hide and Seek” article other Baptists are just as frustrated as you. Your other comment is perhaps an understandable frustration nevertheless it doesn’t solve the problem.
Mr Roger wrote - ““There are no accurate numbers due to the “Hide and Seek”.”” “You base your ‘hide & seek’ claims on nothing - there is no one who can hide another and no benefit to doing so in a congregational model.”
There are Baptists who don’t agree with your point of view. See the links to the article(s) and other posts discussing this problem.
Mr Roger wrote - ““No. There are no accurate numbers with anyone. The recent survey of Catholics relied on self-reporting, which may help explain why the problem went away 30 years ago...no one will self-report a sexual predator problem.”
Yet you appear to have had no hesitation in using those very numbers for your societal good. I even thanked you for trusting the Bishops numbers (given to JJ), you also praised them for not “hiding” them. See post #165 and previous post(s). I’m afraid you’re being inconsistent and disingenuous here.
Mr Rogers - “Based on insurance claims and court cases, the Catholic Church has faced a deeper problem than Baptists, but again, I don’t see it as a Baptist vs Catholic issue, and you will not see me rejoicing when someone files a claim against Catholics. Either way, the name of Jesus suffers, so there is NOTHING to rejoice in.””
Mr Rogers - ““But it revolts me when people try to pretend the problem isn’t a problem, or that it is just a bit of touching. I don’t want a Baptist preacher touching my 13 year old daughter, and I am disgusted when a priest fondles a 15 year old boy.”” ““When 3/4 of cases involve a child 14 or less, it is sex with kids and it is disgusting. When it involves a 25 year old woman and a 30 year old deacon, it brings shame and harm to the name of Jesus and cannot be excused away.””
Mr Rogers - “I think a higher percentage of homosexuals are drawn to the priesthood than to being a Baptist for some of the same reasons teachers draw more than truck drivers, and actors draw more than carpenters. There is both a theatrical aspect and an authority aspect that is bigger and therefor stronger in Catholicism than with Baptists. Most Baptist pastors aren’t viewed as strong authority figures. Most can be fired at any time, either by the deacons or by the congregation. And the Lord’s Supper in a Baptist church involves a short prayer - nothing about offering a sacrifice of the actual flesh and blood of Jesus. That is why, IMHO, the Catholic priesthood draws more homosexuals than Baptist churches do. It isn’t doctrinal, and it isn’t pro/con, it just means one form of worship attracts homosexuals more than another - IMHO, and no, I haven’t studied the issue. Just my guess.”
See Post 159: - Penn State professor Philip Jenkens reported that between 2 to 3 percent of Protestant clergy are pedophiles. His same study reported that less than 1.7 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles. There is simply no reason to think that clergy child molesters are solely a Catholic problem. - *The results of this survey were reported in the book, Ministerial Ethics by Joe Trull and James Carter (2d ed. 2004), and in The Baptist Standard editorial, “Churches must act to prevent clergy sexual abuse,” 4/22/2002. - (source: The voice of SNAP Baptist)
They obviously trusted the report, they were right, as it was never challenged - the authors are Protestants.
Mr Rogers - “But either way, ANY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT SHAMES THE NAME OF JESUS AND IS DEPLORABLE! Baptist, Catholic or Pentecostal, ANY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT SHAMES THE NAME OF JESUS AND IS DEPLORABLE!””
Amen
Yes, it’s all very revolting, as Catholics have been saying for years. We were all relieved and thankful when the strict program was implemented in the CC, mainline Protestant Churches, and other Institutions over a decade ago. They’re constantly updating their guidelines as new data arises.
God bless you and all here.
“Yes, your anti-baptist website has over 30 cases of alleged collusion...”
See post #56 which was in response to WaterBoard - they happened last week. I could post many from youtube news reports. The “antibaptist” site posted statistical reports which were posted in Baptist Journals - don’t forget the numbers from the CC spanned about 60 yrs. People believe it continues to happen and these are all new numbers, depending on their agenda, they either go for the headline or nuance the small print.
Bottomline - “alleged” and “accusations” has been my bone of contention on this thread since WaterBoards post #8, you defended him throughout the thread, in fact, your very first post on this thread was to him where you stated he would need to read us the “report” (which was a review)...and that we apparently had out eyes tightly shut...would never believe it, etc. Then you proceeded to use the numbers according to your societal needs, which is, sorry to say, a leftist trick. But it was an obvious jumping in thing, without knowing the full story which you’ve admitted to at least twice, and obviously something you’ve been used to doing. At least that’s how it appeared to me. It’s never been my intention to bash Baptists nor any other denomination nor use “anti-baptist” sites, those kind of sites are abhorrent. Baptists in the past have come to my aid. I still have a Holy Bible with a beautiful inscription inside, given to me as a gift a couple of decades ago, from a dear Baptist friend who wanted to convert me. :)
But even Catholics, Bishops, Priests, deserve to be treated equally under the law. Many did wrong but more than 95% are good and decent men of God who are no more prone to Homosexuality, pedophilia, molesting, or other abuses than anyone else, that said, the same goes for over 95% Baptists and other Christian denominations. The Secular Schools are where everyone should focus their attention but that’s not as much fun as bashing Catholics. The avalanche of anti-Catholic posts here over Easter was beyond the pale. I can say anti-Catholic because they were posting the same story but with a different headings within hours of each other - posted on this forum and the newsforum, it was on the newsforum, late at night, where I eyed 4 of them within 24hrs - 48hrs of each other. I don’t see you as a part of the sorosgroupies so please exclude yourself as you appear to be a decent man of God - someone one can converse with in an open and honest discussion - something that’s fast becoming a part of the scrapheap.
Judith -> “...my point again is that there are problems in ALL churches, and that the relentless, at times vicious, and always one-sided focus on the Catholic church is wrong.”
And also my point. I’ve read about numerous predator Pastors in the news at least weekly. They could have been posted by any Catholic here but then one would have to question ones motive for sodoing. For me, it would be in retaliation, and that’s not Christlike (and I’m nowhere near it but try), that being said, I won’t sit back and watch the distortions and spin either.
God bless you both and all here
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