Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
Wow! Very well said, Campion! Thank you!
Sorry--I have to disagree here.
First, you are saying that God is NOT omniscient, which pretty well is part of the definition of God.
Second, we go through this age to show to ourselves that we will make the decisions we make--that hell (or heaven) is our own decision and we will not be able to argue against that decision.
God knows everything--past, present, and future--but we don't. That is what makes our decisions so important to Him--that we love Him of our own free will, without knowing the future, but having faith in Him.
"If" is not compatible with what we know of an omniscient God.
"Predestination means that the TOE is nothing more than a man created fable."
I'm afraid that does make sense. Man alone is unique among the creatures created by God. The Theory of Evolution only defines the means an omniscient and omnipotent God created for the introduction of life into a dynamic universe. It is not important to argue over how God created man, we should all rejoice and proclaim that He did.
Christ told Nicodemus in John 3 the first requirement for any to see the kingdom of God was to be born of woman into this flesh age. And then it is Written verse 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life...
IF God already knows who will 'believe' then there was no point to this flesh age because He already knew who the rebels were before He destroyed that heaven/earth age that Peter describes in IIPeter 3. Those that did not follow the first rebel, the devil, were already justified, but they to in the perfection of perfect judgment were too required to pass through this flesh age.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil:
When God created 'Lucifer' God loved him and appointed him to be -- Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou has walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created till iniquity was found in thee... Isaiah 14:12 gives another account of Lucifer and his falling, judgment and death sentence long before this flesh age.
Lucifer stopped loving our Father and decided he would be god. And in his rebellion he drew with him a third of the sons of God and then there was the katabolle, (translated in many places as 'foundation') which is described in Genesis 1:2 and by Jeremiah in 4:22-28 and Peter in IIPeter 3.
Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after....
So what is this that is NOT allowed to be remembered?
The WORD instructs us into what God said He did, is doing, and will do, and LOVE is demonstrated by taking the time to read with understanding what He said did happen, is happening and will happen. Christ said before one word of the so called NEW was ever put on animal skin or linen or plant fiber that He had already foretold US all things. Mark 13:23 And as Paul writes in ICorinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them (got to start in verse 1 to find out who the them are) for ensamples: (examples) and they are written for our admonition (warning), upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
God in His Omniscience gave us His script so that those that LOVE Him will of their own, either as one of the elect or those that have 'free will' will demonstrate their LOVE by finding out what HE said was going to take place.
The TOE is the imaginations of flesh man to pervert what God said He did. Predestination means that long before this flesh age man/woman existed in bodies the TOE crowd willingly admits they cannot 'test' let alone replicate. The most TOE can define is the commonality of substances used to create flesh life.
IF God already knows who will 'believe' then there was no point to this flesh age
If it didn't occur, didn't exist, how could it be foreknown? I think there's an error positing foreknowledge of something that never happened.
Any contention that salvation is somehow dependent on what man does is tantamount to “taking credit”. >>we just gotta hold on<<
But we wouldn’t even be able to do that if not for the gift of faith and belief. Did you not see the Greek word that has been translated “draw”? Re read my post describing that it means to drag as a net is dragged.
Under double predestination, how does any individual have any responsibility for his choices and actions?
Rather then trying to split hairs or figure out how God does things I choose to just give Him ALL the glory and thank Him for His grace, mercy and love. Any credit man trys to take is heading down a slippery slope.
You’ve oversimplified the designs of our sovereign and omnipotent God. He didn’t just create us and then lets us be.
You’ve haven’t addressed Romans 9, which clearly shows that according to God’s sovereignty some people are prepared for destruction as He hardens their heart and others are prepared for mercy.
You can state that Grace is not imposed, but Romans 9 doesn’t support that view.
IF God already knows who will 'believe' then there was no point to this flesh age
If it didn't occur, didn't exist, how could it be foreknown? I think there's an error positing foreknowledge of something that never happened.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 God told Jeremiah he foreknew him before he was ever born in this flesh age. All souls/spirits intellect were created before they were given the opportunity to pass through this flesh age. Notice that we are told that Adam in a flesh body was not living until God breathed the 'breath of life' means soul into his body. And even then the flesh body of the Adam underwent the first recorded surgery to create the woman.
There is a hierarchy of the Revealed Word with the Gospels comprised of the actual words and deeds of Christ at the pinnacle. Everything in the entire Bible must be interpreted in the context of the Gospels. Paul did not come to teach a new Gospel, but to help explain and spread THE Gospel. If you cannot support your interpretation from the Gospel your interpretation is wrong.
In faith, the human intellect and will cooperates with divine grace. As stated by St. Thomas Aquinas: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace." Grace, freely accepted by human intellect, is what differentiates Mary from a rape victim.
This is not to be confused with the obedience of faith. Remember that to obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to "hear or listen to") in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself.
I believe in both free will and predestination and don’t think they have to be mutually exclusive. I know others will reject that notion.
God is the one, who according to His mercy, draws people to Himself and opens their heart so they are receptive to the Gospel. Obviously, God knows who will accept the Gospel and so I believe He opens their heart so they are able to do so. But, I still believe it is incumbent upon each person to believe on their own accord.
Any credit man trys to take is heading down a slippery slope.
I was asking about responsibility. Do you or I have any responsibility for our choices, decisions and actions under double-predestination?
If, for example, you decided to be rude and hurtful in replying to this post, would you be responsible for that choice?
IF God already knows who will 'believe' then there was no point to this flesh age
Foreknowing does not logically mean what is foreknown is therefore meaningless. Only that it is foreknown. If I foreknow that my child will have to learn the hard way that saving money is important, this does not mean that his learning or saving are useless events.
God told Jeremiah he foreknew him before he was ever born in this flesh age.
But Jeremiah was born. If he were not born, God could not foreknow him.
You keep mentioning double predestination. As I understand double predestination it involves God being complicit in causing someone harm. I don’t believe in that. That would involve God being actively complicit in sin or harm. We are born with a sinful nature not inclined to search out God or obey Him. God draws some to Him and others He leaves in their sinful nature and to suffer the consequences. From a carnal perspective I’m not sure we can fully understand that but God draws who He will. >>If, for example, you decided to be rude and hurtful in replying to this post, would you be responsible for that choice?<<
Yep, and I would pay for it in some way here on earth. There is a difference in the earthly realm and the spiritual realm. We do suffer for our sins here on earth but they have been forgiven in the Spiritual and we appear spotless before God because Jesus paid for our sins already.
Double predestination, also known as Calvinist Predestination, is the view that God predetermined those who would go to heaven, and who to hell, and that his decision will infallibly come to pass.
Yep, and I would pay for it in some way here on earth. There is a difference in the earthly realm and the spiritual realm. We do suffer for our sins here on earth but they have been forgiven in the Spiritual and we appear spotless before God because Jesus paid for our sins already.
Putting aside forgiveness for the moment: Are you saying you are responsible for your choices to sin? Do the predestined non-elect have the same ability to choose and responsibility for those choices?
In short, do both the elect and non-elect have the same capacity and ability to choose and therefore the same responsibility for their choices?
Then, if I follow you correctly, God gives everyone faith so that they may choose to have or not to have faith. But if they decide to have faith with the faith God has given, God will assign them an extra measure of faith.
I don't wish to tell God what to do but wouldn't it be much simplier just to assign everyone that extra measure of faith? I know, that would violate their free will in which God gave them a little bit of faith so that they would have enough to make a choice or not. And their reward will be more faith.
My head hurts.
You may wish to take the matter up with our Lord for this is what He told us:
Our Father knows what we're going to ask. That isn't determinism, that's predestination. That still doesn't mean that we shouldn't ask. Whether He says "Yes" or "No", it is only through pray that we can understand the will of God for our lives.
Now don’t go trying to combine the carnal and spiritual on me. In the spiritual realm our sins are forgiven as it concerns our salvation. That doesn’t mean that we just go on sinning. A true Christian who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a changed individual and has the “law” written in his heart. He/She now wants to please God and resists, as much as is possible while still in this earthly body, doing things that displease Him. We like Paul know that the things we want to do sometimes we don’t and the things we don’t want to do we still do on occasion. Those sins are also forgiven when done in a moment of weakness at least as our salvation is concerned.
In the earthly or carnal realm there may still be consequences to those “sins”. I believe, for instance, that if we steal something it will cost us seven times the cost of that item in this world. If we are careless and someone is hurt or dies we will be punished for that. >>Do the predestined non-elect have the same ability to choose and responsibility for those choices?<<
Predestined non-elect? Wouldn’t that be double predestination again? Yeah I know it’s a tough one to get our heads around. If one is predestined for salvation doesn’t that mean the other is predestined to damnation? I don’t know how to answer that other then to say that in my mind those who are chosen by God for salvation are predestined to salvation and the others are simply left in there fallen state. As to the same ability to choose, it would seem to me that the unsaved don’t have the same “law” written on the heart so don’t see the spiritual implication of their actions whereas the saved person does. The only consequences they see are the carnal or earthly.
I hope that all made sense to you. I pray God will make the words mean what I intend. Bottom line is that Jesus made salvation pretty simple for us. The real gospel is “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – and your house”. There is no other way.
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