Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
I’m gone for several days vacation.
Thanks for the discussion and may God bless you and yours...
Have a great vacation! God bless and I pray He sends His angels to guard you and yours.
No, only those who do it from the heart. There are those who do it in rituals with no real heart longing.
Paul asked for prayer on different occasions and for different reasons.
Open doors for the gospel to be heard -- Colossians 4:3
Wisdom to speak gospel message clearly -- Ephesians 6:19
No fear in sharing gospel in a hostile world -- Ephesians 6:19
Spread of the gospel -- 2 Thessalonians 3:1
Receptivity of the gospel -- 2 Thessalonians 3:1
Deliverance from evil men -- 2 Thessalonians 3:2
Acceptable service -- Romans 15:31
Safe travel to enable joyful fellowship in Christ -- Romans 15:32
Pray for intercession and many, many other things. Do a study on prayer from scripture.
Calvin would agree that it is our responsibility to accept God. Calvin would not agree that we could reject God. From Calvin's Commentary on Ephesian 2:8:
Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation.
By quoting Roman 12, you appear to be confusing the text of saving faith with normal Christian believing faith. Spiritual gifts are given to the believer and one of those gifts is an extra measure of faith. But this has nothing to do with saving faith-the faith that leads one to Christ.
All Christians have saving faith. Otherwise they would not be Christians. This saving faith is dispense with God's gift of grace:
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
But unbelievers have no saving faith and they certainly are not given God's grace. This is what separates Christians from non-Christians. Sure, non-believers might seem to have faith by acknowledging God's existence or even prophesying for the Lord like Balaam. But they don't place their trust in Him. They have no saving faith. That is why they're unbelievers.
Unbelievers can't lose something they never had in the first place. We all start out DEAD. It is God who breaths life into us by instilling us with saving faith through His grace.
From New Advent (the Catholic dictionary):
Determinism is a name employed by writers, especially since J. Stuart Mill, to denote the philosophical theory which holds — in opposition to the doctrine of free will — that all man's volitions are invariably determined by pre-existing circumstances. It may take diverse forms, some cruder, some more refined. Biological and materialistic Determinism maintains that each of our voluntary acts finds its sufficient and complete cause in the physiological conditions of the organism. Psychological Determinism ascribes efficiency to the psychical antecedents. In this view each volition or act of choice is determined by the character of the agent plus the motives acting on him at the time.
Well said.
“But unbelievers have no saving faith and they certainly are not given God’s grace. ...We all start out DEAD. It is God who breaths life into us by instilling us with saving faith through His grace. “
False.
Why do I say that?
Well, undoubtedly unbelievers have no saving faith. By definition. If they had, they would be believers.
But are they not given God’s grace? At all?
“44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” - Matt 5
“19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
Let me repeat: “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them...So they are without excuse.”
We are to imitate God by doing good to believers and unbelievers both, for God “makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” And the unbelievers have no excuse, because God has shown [what can be known about God] to them.
Unbeliever’s DO receive good things from God, and that IS God’s grace. He also has revealed Himself, in sufficient detail (”plain to them”) that they “are without excuse”.
Paul says “although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him” - explicit revelation that men know enough about God to make a choice.
What else did Paul reveal?
“28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”
“they did not see fit to acknowledge God”. I don’t know how it can be made clearer than that.
Unbelievers are dead, in the sense of being totally alienated from God, but if they remain that way, they have no excuse - “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.”
I’ve discussed dead many times, and pointed out it is just one of the words used to describe us. Others include blind, captive, slaves, and sick. But does an unbeliever have a conscience?
You betcha!
“13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” - Romans 2
To repeat for emphasis:
“the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them”.
When an unbelieving man loves a woman and cares for her, forsaking all others, he shows God’s law has been revealed to him - written on his heart.
They have a conscience.
“This saving faith is dispense with God’s gift of grace:
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.”
Actually, it says grace was given us - not faith. There are no verses saying saving faith is a gift given us by God to allow us to live. None. Jesus “found” faith or unbelief - he did not give it.
We believe to live. We do not live to believe. Calvin was wrong, although his commentary on individual verses often conflicts with his systematic theology. All men have a conscience. All men have enough knowledge about God revealed to them by God to have no excuse. God’s law is written in the hearts of man, although when men utterly reject God, he often utterly rejects them. But not, according to Paul, before they knew him. “For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
I forgot to repeat, and it is significant, this:
“Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”
Again: God has revealed His law to man. We are not so dead we cannot know God’s law, for God reveals it even to those who reject Him.
Would you show me where you get grace from that? I see knowledge that there is a God but no grace from God.
“Would you show me where you get grace from that? I see knowledge that there is a God but no grace from God.”
I guess I consider God’s revealing Himself to unbelieving men an act of grace. We deserve nothing, yet God chooses to reveal Himself and to write His law on our hearts, giving us consciences - all without our first believing.
I consider the fact that God does not condemn men for what they cannot help, but for rejecting Him & His revelation of Himself to be an act of grace. We deserve nothing, but even those who God knows in advance will hate him still are given a conscience and knowledge of God - BEFORE it reaches a point where God abandons them.
There’s so much wrong in that post I’m not even going to attempt to cover it all. Anyone else is welcome. The whole thing is so unscriptural it’s amazing. Just the statement “I consider” has no scriptural basis and it seems much of your theology is based on that.
“Just the statement “I consider” has no scriptural basis and it seems much of your theology is based on that.”
Consider: “to think carefully about, especially in order to make a decision; contemplate; reflect on”
I consider it a good idea to consider what scripture says.
As for being unscriptural - posts 348 & 349 are mostly quotes from scripture.
Calvinists seem to believe we have no conscience before we believe, since we have no ability to know God or obey his laws - yet scripture says “14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”
It says “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.” If God revealing Himself to man is not unmerited favor from God, what is? And if “they knew God” before rejecting Him, then how can we be said to be unable to know God before being saved?
Oh well. Something for folks to consider.
And this:
“Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality.” - Romans 2
“do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” - Yet Calvin would say we cannot repent. So God gives us kindness to lead us to repentance, while knowing we cannot repent. Calvin would make God a fool - doing something to lead men to do what he knows they cannot do.
Leadeth thee, etc. Or the tendency, the design of the goodness of God, is to induce men to repent of their sins, and not to lead them to deeper and more aggravated iniquity. The same sentiment is expressed in 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is long-suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” See also Isaiah 30:18, “And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you.” Hosea 5:15; Ezekiel 18:23,32.
Repentance. Change of mind, and purpose, and life. The word here evidently means not merely sorrow, but a forsaking of sin, and turning from it. The tendency of God’s goodness and forbearance to lead men to repentance is manifest in the following ways.
(1.) It shows the evil of transgression when it is seen to be committed against so kind and merciful a Being.
(2.) It is fitted to melt and soften the heart. Judgments often harden the sinner’s heart, and make him obstinate. But if, while he does evil, God is as constantly doing him good; if the patience of God is seen from year to year, while the man is rebellious, it is adapted to melt and subdue the heart.
(3.) The great mercy of God in this often appears to men to be overwhelming; and so it would to all, if they saw it as it is. God bears with men from childhood to youth; from youth to manhood; from manhood to old age; often while they violate every law, contemn his mercy, profane his name, and disgrace their species; and still, notwithstanding all this, his anger is turned away, and the sinner lives, and “riots in the beneficence of God.” If there is any thing that can affect the heart of man, it is this; and when he is brought to see it, and contemplate it, it rushes over the soul, and overwhelms it with bitter sorrow.
(4.) The mercy and forbearance of God are constant. The manifestations of his goodness come in every form; in the sun, and light, and air; in the rain, the stream, the dew-drop; in food, and raiment, and home; in friends, and liberty, and protection; in health and peace; and in the gospel of Christ, and the offers of life; and in all these ways God is appealing to his creatures each moment, and setting before them the evils of ingratitude, and beseeching them to turn and live.
And from this passage we cannot but remark,
(1.) that the most effectual preaching is that which sets before men most of the goodness of God.
(2.) Every man is under obligation to forsake his sins, and turn to God. There is no man who has not seen repeated proofs of his mercy and love.
(3.) Sin is a stubborn and an amazing evil. Where it can resist all the appeals of God’s mercy; where the sinner can make his way down to hell through all the proofs of God’s goodness; where he can refuse to hear God speaking to him each day, and each hour, it shows an amazing extent of depravity to resist all this, and still remain a sinner. Yet there are thousands and millions who do it; and who can be won by no exhibition of love or mercy to forsake their sins, and turn to God. Happy is the man who is melted into contrition by the goodness of God, and who sees and mourns over the evil of sinning against so good a Being as is the Creator and Parent of all.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=002
Nope. I do not believe in universal salvation because God tells us that most people will choose the "wide path", or eternal death. I believe Jesus Christ when He says that "whosoever (not a pre-selected, special group, but whoever) believes in (Me) shall not perish, but have eternal life".
Do you believe that the angles who have fallen and the devil will be saved too ? after all ? he is the prince of the air, the god of this world.
Nope.
False. Why do I say that? Well, undoubtedly unbelievers have no saving faith.
??? I say it because it's true. And I think you agreed-maybe...perhaps...
But are they not given God’s grace? At all?
"For by grace you have been saved..."
If they were given God's grace they would have been saved.
Unbeliever’s DO receive good things from God, and that IS God’s grace.
Good things from God is not God's grace. They are good things. Grace is given to us for our justification.
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
This is the problem.
If we cannot reject Him, then we cannot accept Him. It's a cognitive disconnect.
That is why I come to these threads so rarely. I can't argue against insanity.
“”For by grace you have been saved...” / If they were given God’s grace they would have been saved.”
Nope.
Grace: “1) grace
a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues”
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5485&t=KJV
Don’t know if this is accurate, but I’d bet it is:
“We had, at one time, described the word “Charis” as being from the French root of the word “Charisma”, meaning “grace”. One of our web visitors, a teacher of Greek from Kavala, Greece has graciously provided us with a more accurate etymology.
“Charis” is a Greek word, still in common usage. It is a rich and meaningful name and well-chosen to represent what we strive for. In both Modern and Ancient Greek the word “Charis” retains the following meanings: “innate giftedness”, “splendour”, “inner grace”, “charm”, “gift”, “talent”, “beneficence”, “courtesy”, “gratitude”, and “donation” (readers take note!), but has also come to mean “joy” and “mercy”.
In Greek Mythology, “the Charites” were worshiped as goddesses protecting and promoting all kinds of joy and happiness, their names being “Aglaia”, meaning “splendour”, “Efrosyni”, meaning “merriment and pleasant state of mind” and “Thalia” meaning “blooming life”. As for the pronunciation in Greek it is “Haris” with soft “h” sound.
Many thanks to A.T. for her kind and gracious efforts to clear up this misinformation!”
http://wellhost.com/charis/etymology.html
Grace is not a word meaning “What God does in saving us”. When God gives good things to the just and unjust, he is demonstrating his grace.
In English:
3. favor or goodwill. Synonyms: kindness, kindliness, love, benignity; condescension.
4.
a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior: It was only through the dean’s grace that I wasn’t expelled from school. Synonyms: forgiveness, charity, mercifulness. Antonyms: animosity, enmity, disfavor.
5.
mercy; clemency; pardon: He was saved by an act of grace from the governor. Synonyms: lenity, leniency, reprieve.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grace
Many unbelievers are given kindness and mercy by God, and repay it with hatred.
“Grace is given to us for our justification. / Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, “
Grace INCLUDES God’s unmerited mercy in justifying us, but it is not limited to that meaning. The grace of God in saving us is just a part of his grace. It isn’t the whole.
Arminius called the grace of God to unbelievers ‘prevenient grace’. I think that is an error. I think there is God’s grace, given to undeserving men. Those who respond in the positive are saved, and those who respond in the negative are justifiably damned for spurning the goodness and mercy of God.
Here is a link to the 148 times it is used in the New Testament:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5485&t=ESV
I'm not sure I follow your logic. God gives us to tools to come to Him and we come to Him with the tools He provides. I don't understand how difficult this is to understand or what seems to be the disconnect. After all we sing, "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see" or "...through the eyes of sinful men thy glory may not see."
So much for Amazing Grace or Holy, Holy, Holy. I don't think people think of the words they are singing anymore.
As far as the insanity, I truly understand your point.
Rejection implies the ability to accept. You cannot reject what you cannot accept.
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