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To: CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta; OKSooner; aruanan

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Even faith is a gift from God. “not of yourselves”

Try to take credit for yourself if you will.


In the English, one can become confused. In the Greek, it is clear: gift refers to salvation and cannot refer to faith (different genders).

“And that (kai touto).
Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv [faith] (feminine) or to xariv [grace] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.”

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=002&verse=008

So I don’t lose the formatting, I’ll quote a post from aruanan in a separate post in a minute.


100 posted on 08/27/2011 7:56:12 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta; OKSooner; aruanan
HD “What you have steadfastly refused to answer is who gives you your belief? Where does your faith come from?”

What I do know is that the Calvinist idea that they are gifts given by God to the Elect is nowhere taught in scripture. Both belief and faith are repeatedly - in literally hundreds of verses - described as something men do, not receive.

The idea that faith is a gift comes from confusion between pronouns and the nouns they are linked with in several verses in the second chapter of Ephesians. The problem really arises because English words, unlike Greek, have no gender and because certain words that are singular in Greek have a translation in English that sound plural. Also, it doesn't help that some translations, like the NIV, add punctuation that reinforces the idea that faith is a gift even though it's unsupported by the text. I'll give the Greek and then the English. I'll make the nouns ("the riches" and "the gift," singular neuter) and the respective pronoun ("this," singular neuter) in question bold so it's obvious which goes with what. "Faith" (singular feminine, πιστεως) I'll italicize. (And the really sad thing is that most of the English translations miss out on reproducing some beautiful parallelism in the Greek.

4 ο δε θεος πλουσιος ων εν ελεει δια την πολλην αγαπην αυτου ην ηγαπησεν ημας 5 και οντας ημας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν συνεζωοποιησεν τω χριστω χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι 6 και συνηγειρεν και συνεκαθισεν εν τοις επουρανιοις εν χριστω ιησου 7 ινα ενδειξηται εν τοις αιωσιν τοις επερχομενοις το υπερβαλλον πλουτος της χαριτος αυτου εν χρηστοτητι εφ ημας εν χριστω ιησου 8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον 9 ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται 10 αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The thing to note here is that the "that" that so many think refers to faith cannot because it is a neuter pronoun that refers back to the neuter noun "riches" and to that noun's apposition "gift," also singular neuter. It doesn't refer to "faith" because, if it did, it would have been feminine in gender.

A better way of translating this passage would be simply to repeat the noun to which the pronoun refers and to make sure the parenthetical comments appear as such both times.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ (by grace you are saved) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus so that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding wealth of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (for by grace are ye saved through faith). And that exceeding wealth, the gift of God, is not of yourselves. It is not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, in which God has before ordained that we should walk.

6,402 posted on Sunday, January 24, 2010 8:38:45 PM by aruanan [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6379 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

102 posted on 08/27/2011 7:59:06 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
I’ll simply reply to all of your posts with this. Think that you in any way “earned” or deserve your salvation if you want. This issue has been debated for centuries by many. Erasmus the humanist would be an example as well as those who follow the RCC.

I give all credit to God and take none for myself.

114 posted on 08/27/2011 8:23:10 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Mr Rogers; GiovannaNicoletta; OKSooner; aruanan
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

If righteousness is “of faith” would you also say you earn your own righteousness? Since all Christians should say that salvation is not by works then we must also say that faith is not by our works lest we should boast.

If we must muster up our own faith then justification is by works and again we know that is not correct.

126 posted on 08/27/2011 9:11:36 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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