Posted on 10/01/2011 5:51:45 AM PDT by kindred
Also, i have not been following this thread except a few comments at the end, and know not the nature of your apparent conflict, but if you reject that the Lord can return somewhat soon than i disagree. It may be for some time, and i think the cup of inequity is not yet full, but you cannot preclude a relative soon return.
YET in Ezekiel chapters 38 through 48 have not happened yet and yet this earth still exists. And nothing in Revelation gives even the slightest hint this earth will ever become nonexistent.
v11
And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
well, you most likely know more about it than i do as i do not get into the old testament much unless it is something that plainly supports something that is written in the new.
Paul was sovereignly chosen by God to be an apostle, though Ananias did lay hands on him that he may receive his sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 9:17) And Paul did see the Lord (1Cor. 9:1) and received by revelation the fulness of the gospel of grace, and whose writings Peter affirmed as Scripture, but this was not a different gospel for a different body of believers, but shows how Jews and Gentiles are reconciled in one body.
And which is “the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” (Rm. 16:25) “even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,” (Col. 1:26) “Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Ephesians 3:4-6)
This was not different than what Peter and others realized,as seen in Acts 10, and who affirmed Paul’s writings as Scripture, but to Paul was given the theology behind it.
But the formation of the body of Christ formally began at Pentecost, with the pouring out of the gifts to all believers, and the thus Paul was persecuting Christ by persecuting His body of Acts 9.
As for the chronology, this is open to some discussion. One timeline here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.cfm
An issue is the First Jerusalem Visit:
“If the second Galatian visit is the same as the second visit of Paul as recorded in Acts, then we should be able to count backwards either l4 or 17 years (depending on whether Paul meant the three years and the 14 years to be consecutive or contiguous—both dating from the decisive event of his salvation) and find out when Paul was converted. If the larger figure is used, it will be seen that Paul must have been converted in A.D. 30! To avoid this problem, some scholars suggest that the second visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Galatians is actually referring to the Jerusalem council. However, this is hardly likely for the following reasons...” http://www.xenos.org/classes/chronop.htm
I pray you do not see a conflict. As I do not have any conflict in my heart towards you or anyone at all. I am loving all the comments, thoughts, opinions, Word of GOD being shared, given, and received, etc.....it’s just communication.
For me, praise GOD, He has given me a very strong faith in Him, His Son’s love, and the voice of the Holy Spirit that speaks to me all the time in prayer ( I try to pray unceasingly; while walking, talking, before talking, eating, etc...).
I have no conflict with any human. It brings nothing to me or to faith. Only learning, sharing, and giving is what God has me see that is important to gain from this life. Sorry to even see that the word “ conflict” came to your mind.
if you are asking me if the Lord is coming back soon?? I will just say to you, “ if you are doing your Master’s business, why would you worry if He’s coming soon or not?? if you are doing what God wants, then, you will just be caught doing His will. He can only be happy about that.”
if you are worried about life on this earth, then, remember Jesus says, “ those that try to save their lives will lose it and those that will lose their lives for my sake will gain life” ( not exact words, but definitely passages will be below to back it up. As all things must be backed up with Scripture for proof!).
In the Spirit, I tell you that Jesus is already here. Read the Word slowly many times over and make notes. Connections in old and new testament are crucial. The bible is a book that is not finished. Its the book of life. We are still in Biblical times.
It says before He comes again that all will know of His name and that he is coming to get people individually. then all will be raised up from graves and all.
He is definitely in the process of picking the ones He wants right now. Those that truly love Jesus know what He has taken them out of. They know what sins they were committing, and are overjoyed the He came and got them. Those who love Jesus know in their heart and actions that they could not of done any of this without Him. But, God will allow those to fool themselves if their ego goes back to where it is. He will make their desires seem like ministry, while their ministry serves others, and they dont realize they are in the dark.
Remember in the Spirit, 1 day to us is like 1 thousand to Him; and it could be the reverse as well. Humans dont have a clue. Thats’ why its best to make sure our hearts are in the right place, then the actions will match. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. But walking in the Spirit will give power over the flesh. So, whenever He comes, we are in Him.
Many people are very paranoid or awaiting the final judgement and not realizing the build up to it. Him coming individually is the “ thief in the night” part that many people are looking over. Walking in the spirit, one will see that JESUS does all things in the spirit not in the flesh.
So when Jesus says many things, like, “ destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it again”, “ I come for the lowly”, “ Man can not live on bread alone”, and many other statements; they are all in the Spirit.
If we walk in the flesh we will see all things as flesh first. We will chase signs, wonders, and all other things we need to feel, see, or touch with our flesh to understand.
Then after that flesh process fails ( and God allows us to see it), then we will see everything in the Spirit; only if God allows and our hearts intent is for God. If our hearts are not for GOD, then God will let people mention His holy name for His promotion and even have an effective ministry to help others; while He those leaves those hypocrites their secret desires.
He is definitely already here taking the wheat from the tare. being the thief in the night. looking at peoples’ hearts and seperating them by their desires and true hearts intent. He is not a fool. NOT AT ALL!
Judgement day will be a very surprising day for many. Because the ones that everyone judges, call names, and look down on. Will most likely be the ones in heaven.
Remember, the world ( including us) all looked down on Jesus through our sins and some of us still keep sinning constantly ( in the dark or in the public; doesnt matter. He see all), and we know we are sinning. Not even trying to stop, and preaching or spreading the Word at the same time.
Many are hearing messages that they should change and are secretly doing the same thing in different places on this earth. This is what Jesus is judging. Many will mention His name and he will say, “ I never knew you. Away from me he who works iniquity/evil.”.
Passasges
Dont worry.
Philippians 4
1 So then, my brothers and dear friends whom I miss so much, my joy and my crown, hold firm in the Lord, dear friends.
2 I urge Euodia, and I urge Syntyche to come to agreement with each other in the Lord;
3 and I ask you, Syzygus, really to be a ‘partner’ and help them. These women have struggled hard for the gospel with me, along with Clement and all my other fellow-workers, whose names are written in the book of life.
4 Always be joyful, then, in the Lord; I repeat, be joyful.
5 Let your good sense be obvious to everybody. The Lord is near.
6 Never worry about anything; but tell God all your desires of every kind in prayer and petition shot through with gratitude,
7 and the peace of God which is beyond our understanding will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brothers, let your minds be filled with everything that is true, everything that is honourable, everything that is upright and pure, everything that we love and admire — with whatever is good and praiseworthy.
9 Keep doing everything you learnt from me and were told by me and have heard or seen me doing. Then the God of peace will be with you.
10 As for me, I am full of joy in the Lord, now that at last your consideration for me has blossomed again; though I recognise that you really did have consideration before, but had no opportunity to show it.
11 I do not say this because I have lacked anything; I have learnt to manage with whatever I have.
12 I know how to live modestly, and I know how to live luxuriously too: in every way now I have mastered the secret of all conditions: full stomach and empty stomach, plenty and poverty.
13 There is nothing I cannot do in the One who strengthens me.
14 All the same, it was good of you to share with me in my hardships.
15 In the early days of the gospel, as you of Philippi well know, when I left Macedonia, no church other than yourselves made common account with me in the matter of expenditure and receipts. You were the only ones;
16 and what is more, you have twice sent me what I needed in Thessalonica.
17 It is not the gift that I value most; what I value is the interest that is mounting up in your account.
18 I have all that I need and more: I am fully provided, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the offering that you sent, a pleasing smell, the sacrifice which is acceptable and pleasing to God.
19 And my God will fulfil all your needs out of the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.
20 And so glory be to God our Father, for ever and ever. Amen.
21 My greetings to every one of God’s holy people in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings.
22 All God’s holy people send you their greetings, especially those of Caesar’s household.
23 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Those worried on losing their lives on this earth. God sees all and rewards.
Matthew 16:25-27
25 Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 What, then, will anyone gain by winning the whole world and forfeiting his life? Or what can anyone offer in exchange for his life?
27 ‘For the Son of man is going to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his behaviour.
Seeking a sign as some way to know Jesus is coming
Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees spoke up. ‘Master,’ they said, ‘we should like to see a sign from you.’
39 He replied, ‘It is an evil and unfaithful generation that asks for a sign! The only sign it will be given is the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah remained in the belly of the sea-monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
1 day to us is like a thousand to Him. Also how long living in sin can feel.
Psalms 90:4
4 A thousand years are to you like a yesterday which has passed, like a watch of the night.
Psalm 84:10
10 Better one day in your courts than a thousand at my own devices, to stand on the threshold of God’s house than to live in the tents of the wicked.
Dont worry when Jesus comes again, he is a thief in the night, just do your master’s will; be at peace with one another and love one another.
1 Thessalonians 5
1 About times and dates, brothers, there is no need to write to you
2 for you are well aware in any case that the Day of the Lord is going to come like a thief in the night.
3 It is when people are saying, ‘How quiet and peaceful it is’ that sudden destruction falls on them, as suddenly as labour pains come on a pregnant woman; and there is no escape.
4 But you, brothers, do not live in the dark, that the Day should take you unawares like a thief.
5 No, you are all children of light and children of the day: we do not belong to the night or to darkness,
6 so we should not go on sleeping, as everyone else does, but stay wide awake and sober.
7 Night is the time for sleepers to sleep and night the time for drunkards to be drunk,
8 but we belong to the day and we should be sober; let us put on faith and love for a breastplate, and the hope of salvation for a helmet.
9 God destined us not for his retribution, but to win salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us so that, awake or asleep, we should still live united to him.
11 So give encouragement to each other, and keep strengthening one another, as you do already.
12 We appeal to you, my brothers, to be considerate to those who work so hard among you as your leaders in the Lord and those who admonish you.
13 Have the greatest respect and affection for them because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.
14 We urge you, brothers, to admonish those who are undisciplined, encourage the apprehensive, support the weak and be patient with everyone.
15 Make sure that people do not try to repay evil for evil; always aim at what is best for each other and for everyone.
16 Always be joyful;
17 pray constantly;
18 and for all things give thanks; this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.
19 Do not stifle the Spirit
20 or despise the gift of prophecy with contempt;
21 test everything and hold on to what is good
22 and shun every form of evil.
23 May the God of peace make you perfect and holy; and may your spirit, life and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who has called you is trustworthy and will carry it out.
25 Pray for us, my brothers.
26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.
27 My orders, in the Lord’s name, are that this letter is to be read to all the brothers.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you
Matthew 24:42-51
42 ‘So stay awake, because you do not know the day when your master is coming.
43 You may be quite sure of this, that if the householder had known at what time of the night the burglar would come, he would have stayed awake and would not have allowed anyone to break through the wall of his house.
44 Therefore, you too must stand ready because the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 ‘Who, then, is the wise and trustworthy servant whom the master placed over his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 Blessed that servant if his master’s arrival finds him doing exactly that.
47 In truth I tell you, he will put him in charge of everything he owns.
48 But if the servant is dishonest and says to himself, “My master is taking his time,”
49 and sets about beating his fellow-servants and eating and drinking with drunkards,
50 his master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know.
51 The master will cut him off and send him to the same fate as the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.’
He is already here watching and judging
John 5:25-33
25 In all truth I tell you, the hour is coming — indeed it is already here — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and all who hear it will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself;
27 and, because he is the Son of man, has granted him power to give judgement.
28 Do not be surprised at this, for the hour is coming when the dead will leave their graves at the sound of his voice:
29 those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.
30 By myself I can do nothing; I can judge only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
31 Were I to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be true;
32 but there is another witness who speaks on my behalf, and I know that his testimony is true.
33 You sent messengers to John, and he gave his testimony to the truth-
Jesus is choosing people in the Spirit now
Matthew 24:38-41
38 For in those days before the Flood people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the ark,
39 and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept them all away. This is what it will be like when the Son of man comes.
40 Then of two men in the fields, one is taken, one left;
41 of two women grinding at the mill, one is taken, one left.
Do not worry on judgement as well. God is not mocked or fooled by anything:
Galatians 6:7
7 Don’t delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap.
Jeremiah 25:27-38
27 ‘You will say to them, “Yahweh Sabaoth, the God of Israel, says this: Drink! Get drunk! Vomit! Fall, never to rise again, before the sword that I am sending among you!”
28 If they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink, you will say to them, “Yahweh Sabaoth says this: You must drink!
29 Look, for a start, I am bringing disaster on the city that bears my name, so are you likely to go unpunished? You certainly will not go unpunished, for next I shall summon a sword against all the inhabitants of the land, Yahweh declares.”
30 ‘For your part, you are to prophesy all these words to them. Say to them: “Yahweh roars from on high, he thunders from his holy dwelling-place, loudly he roars at his own fold, shouts aloud like those who tread the grape at all the inhabitants of the land.
31 The noise resounds to the remotest parts of the earth. For Yahweh is indicting the nations, arraigning all humanity for judgement; the wicked he assigns to the sword, Yahweh declares.
32 Yahweh Sabaoth says this: Look, disaster is spreading from nation to nation, a mighty tempest is rising from the far ends of the earth.
33 “Those slaughtered by Yahweh that day will be scattered across the world from end to end. No dirge will be raised for them; no one will gather them or bury them; they will stay lying on the surface like dung.
34 “Howl, shepherds, shriek, roll on the ground, you lords of the flock, for your days have come to be slaughtered and to be scattered, and like a choice vase you will fall.
35 No refuge then for the shepherds, no escape for the lords of the flock!
36 Listen! A shriek from the shepherds, a howl from the lords of the flock! For Yahweh has laid their pasture waste,
37 the peaceful sheepfolds are reduced to silence owing to Yahweh’s furious anger.
38 The lion has left his lair and their country is a wasteland now, owing to the devastating fury, owing to his furious anger.” ‘
Allow people to mention His name, but they dont make it, and He knows their true intention:
Matthew 7:20-23
20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.
21 ‘It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?”
23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!
Final judgement when all with him from past till now are with him and all others/evil cease to exist.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Now I am going to tell you a mystery: we are not all going to fall asleep,
52 but we are all going to be changed, instantly, in the twinkling of an eye, when the last trumpet sounds. The trumpet is going to sound, and then the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed,
53 because this perishable nature of ours must put on imperishability, this mortal nature must put on immortality.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the legacy for cowards, for those who break their word, or worship obscenities, for murderers and the sexually immoral, and for sorcerers, worshippers of false gods or any other sort of liars, is the second death in the burning lake of sulphur.’
Daniel 7:11
11 ‘I went on watching: then, because of the noise made by the boastings of the horn, as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames.
Walking in His Spirit and know that He still judges our hearts, conscience, intentions, and bodies ( in the spirit and in the flesh once we know what is right and wrong):
2 Corinthians 5:5-11
5 It is God who designed us for this very purpose, and he has given us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 We are always full of confidence, then, realising that as long as we are at home in the body we are exiled from the Lord,
7 guided by faith and not yet by sight;
8 we are full of confidence, then, and long instead to be exiled from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 And so whether at home or exiled, we make it our ambition to please him.
10 For at the judgement seat of Christ we are all to be seen for what we are, so that each of us may receive what he has deserved in the body, matched to whatever he has done, good or bad.
11 And so it is with the fear of the Lord always in mind that we try to win people over. But God sees us for what we are, and I hope your consciences do too.
Because if you read 2 Peter 3 starting in verse 10 or so, God DESTROYS the earth; He’s removing us before the WRATH. That’s the point.
You’re wrong about what the tribulation period is. We will ALL live through it, if not dead already, and tribulations are meant to bring people to God, not punish them.
I mean this most sincerely, read the Bible about when Christ judges us. It is not during this 7 yr period.
Oh....you’re good :) I am very much appreciating your posts and the way you have of laying out the truth. I often refer to the 10 virgins, 5 of which were NOT prepared for the groom because they thought He was coming earlier than He was.
And, to respond to metmom’s contention that we’re fine no matter what we believe, I really don’t think that’s true but perhaps you can expand on it. As an example, let’s say we’re in the tribulation period, there is no food, an EMP has hit, violence is rampant, and we’re not gone. If we believed that we were going to be removed prior to any tough times, and then we were not removed, don’t you think it would make us vulnerable to taking the mark of the beast to survive? The Bible says that even some of the elect will fall away...that tells me that if we are not prepared, we could follow Satan. In other words, pre trib rapturists are walking a very dangerous tightrope.
Satan’s MO is to kill, steal, and destroy.
I submit that the rebellion is in toto.
God says that children are a blessing (Ps 127:3; Job 42:12-16) so Satan gives us abortion. A man should work and provide for his family (2 Thes 3:10; 1 Ti 5:8) and Satan gives us Socialism, SNAP and Welfare. God ordains death penalty for capital crimes (Ex 21) and restitution for property crimes (Ex 22); Satan gives us a prison system. God condemns tattoos (Lev 19:28) and we have a generation that covers themselves with ink.
Satan tries to duplicate but in the process makes things worse. When Moses went against the Egyptians, they could turn the Nile into blood and bring about frogs but unlike Moses they could not restore order - just make chaos. Some might argue from Job that Satan has the power to create storms yet only our LORD can calm them (Mk 4:39)
God tells us what is honoring and pleasing to Him and Satan tempts the world to do the opposite in all things.
So yet another "End Time" prediction of mine is when we observe that man has rebelled at every level the revealed ordinances and ways of God, then that Last Day is at hand.
As an example, let’s say we’re in the tribulation period...
I am assuming that you are presenting this as a rhetorical hypothetical...
For the record, I and 99%+ of all believers since the Apostles never believed in a "Tribulation" period in the manner described by the Futurists. There was indeed a tribulation period and that has been well documented to be the wholesale Roman slaughter of the Jews around 70AD.
"...there is no food, an EMP has hit, violence is rampant, and we’re not gone..."
First the whole "EMP" thing is far more theoretical than observed and since it appeals to the Doomsday Appreciation Club membership, has a camp-fire retelling that leans very much into the absurd hyperbole, it is highly suspect. After tales of Global Warming, Madrid Fault, Ozone Hole, Simon-Ehrlich wager, China Syndrome, SARS Pandemic, AIDS Pandemic and a host of other ridiculous fables of woe, it gets filed under "Junk Science"
Besides, if one assumes that the Olivet Discourse has absolutely nothing to do with the people Jesus was directly talking to but to reprobates thousands of years in the distant future, then what do you make of "will be like the days of Noah...and Lot" where they ate, drank, married, bought, sold, planted and built. (Lk 17:27-28) Sounds to me like a thriving economy, not this Dystopia the Futurists are painting.
If we believed that we were going to be removed prior to any tough times, and then we were not removed, don’t you think it would make us vulnerable to taking the mark of the beast to survive?
I honestly don't understand this "leave the earth" claim. Was Noah or Lot removed from the earth or were they taken to a place of shelter? When reading Mt 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains" or v20 "pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath", what part of that says anything like the Futurist's description of a "Rapture"? Is this pretty much saying that our LORD can only come in the Spring and Fall because Winter is observed on either pole thus eliminating six months and 52 days (Sabbath + International Date Line) nor a clear day (Mt 24:30) as an opportunity of His return?
Also, what exactly is the "Mark of The Beast"? I know Hal Lindsey's version, and I can rattle off a dozen other speculative claims I've hear over the years. I lived through the craze where people were scratching off the UPC codes from soup cans because they thought they would lose their salvation by keeping it on. For centuries, the belief was that this was Latin worship and allegiance to papal power. The symbolism lends to the idea that the Mark of The Beast is describing an allegiance to or slave of a system or entity that is so certain that their allegiance could just as well be branded on them and proudly or forcibly displayed (as on the forehead) (compare Jn 6:27)
The Bible says that even some of the elect will fall away.
Well that particular paraphrase is in direct contradiction to the many confirmations of the doctrine of Perseverance. (Jn 3:16; 10:28,29; 1 Jn 2:25) and the passage in Matthew 24:24 actually says "if possible even the elect." With faithfulness to the integrity of Scriptures we know it isn't possible so the phrase indicates that the great signs and wonders were that persuasive.
...that tells me that if we are not prepared...
So if I were to pull out my legal pad and pencil and ask for a list of things I must do to be prepared, what would you offer as the first few items? (please keep in mind Gal 2:16)
In other words, pre trib rapturists are walking a very dangerous tightrope.
How about a full-fledged spiritual crisis if national Israel were to be unincorporated by war or some other means? The pre-trib crowd has replaced Jesus Christ and His Church with a God-hating, socialist secular UN created nation state in all the Bible prophecies. For Jerusalem to go up in flames is greater defeat of their system than for the Mohammadans to lose their الحجر الأسود (al-Hajar-ul-Aswad) in Mecca
Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
You also quoted Revelation 13 in pieces in an attempt to make it look like I was writing of a “literal beast”.
It seems sort of silly to claim you said one thing when anyone can go back to your post and see quite conclusively that you were referring to a literal composite individual "Beast" who you also went to claim is the "Antichrist". Yes, you also mentioned a "beast system" yet offered no examples nor any clues to indicate what you thought was a description of the literal individual and the "beast system".
If you had read the entire chapter and looked at it dispassionately...
You are projecting. I can promise you that I have spent at least an order of magnitude more time and effort studying the passages than you have - in the original language. But that doesn't really matter, what does matter is do you subject yourself to the authority of Scriptures or do you cast everything under the demonstrably flawed template of Dispensationalism?
Just because something appears to be written “symbolically” in the Bible, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take it any less seriously.
Setting up straw men and then knocking them down?
I am fully aware that Revelation uses figurative language to help folks get a handle on the complexities of the larger spiritual reality.
Figurative language is where you describe something by comparing it to another. Think in terms of metaphors, similes, onomatopoeia, idioms, clichés and hyperbole. Symbolic language takes that to another level with a richness in depth and meaning that is found embodied in the nature and character to that which it is being likened.
For example, as you give us Rev 11:4 and the two olive trees and two candlesticks. Exactly how is that a metaphor, simile, hyperbole, cliché or idiom for the "two witnesses" which in themselves are symbols? For that, you need knowledge of Zech 4:2-3,11,14 which is also a vision and a symbol. The "candlesticks" are symbols that we have seen before - compare to Rev 1:12,20. Because of this pattern in Scripture, its silly to pretend that this is some literal future.
The best way to understand the use of the term “beasts” in this context is to study what happened to Nebuchednezzar when he defied God by taking glory for himself that should have gone to God.
Really? Based on what orthodox hermeneutic? Because if you are going to look up "beast" in an English concordance and cherry pick your way to your a priori destination then you are on your own. What is wrong with using Daniel 7 as a guide to the symbolic composite identity of "The Beast"? Daniel saw beasts rising from the sea in a vision; John saw a beast rising from the sea in a vision - yet you won't use that link. huh. Doesn't fit the Futurist template I guess.
What happens to the world under the “Beast” system infested with the spirit of Antichrist in a Macro sense is what happened to Nebuchednezzar in the singular sense,
OK, you accused me of not reading through a chapter, I think it would be fair to return the question - did you bother to read the rest of Daniel 4, particularly vv34-36? I would love to hear how Nebuchadnezzar's repentance and redemption compares favorably to the Beast, Dragon and False Prophet being cast into the lake of fire to be tormented night and day forever and ever. I'm sure you can find that "type" and link.
As for fantasies Theophilus, I suspect you would have been in that camp of the scribes at the time of Christ who put no stock in some future resurrection of the dead( it did “great violence” to the gospel of the Talmud and Mishna, to take such “nonsense literally and not “symbollically”)...only to be taken aback when it actually did happen.
That is quite insulting. Not only to me, but to millennia of believers including ALL of the great theologians. You are condemning Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Whitefield, the Wesley brothers, Arminius, Erasmus, Edwards, Owens, Hodge, Berkhoff to name a few. ALL of the predictions of the Futurists have come about as total failure. What happened to the 1988 Rapture? What happened to the Soviet Union? The "Ten Nation European" union is presently twenty-seven "horns". We are all supposed to be chipped and have barcodes tattooed across our foreheads. Israel has long passed its forty year "generation" so now your oracles must come up with new explanations for "this generation". What happened to the 188th day? Where was the super-earthquake that was supposed to hit the US September 15th? The Futurists are a constant embarrassment as every earthquake, hurricane and forest fire is some sort of lighting bolt from Zeus for "cursing Abraham".
Perhaps, would we have found you among the scoffers who proclaimed that Israel would never again be a nation just prior to 1948?
Where was it prophesied that a slice of the Middle East would be named by the UN to be Israel?
And while we are at it, explain how this Israel bares ANY resemblance to a Scriptural Israel. Lets first talk about the Temple that is the centerpiece of Jerusalem. Oh, we can't because Israel doesn't have possession of Jerusalem and the current occupiers aren't willing to let a Jewish temple, or for that matter any Jew up on the alleged temple mount.
OK, maybe that was a hit below the belt. Lets talk all about how Israel is occupying all of the land promised to Abraham. Oh, that is right, they have never possessed it. Well, maybe we can talk about how Israel is divided up as God intended according to the Tribes with the Levites living in the cities performing priestly duties. Oh, they aren't doing any of those things.
OK, lets talk about the King, or at least the priest and judge system that God ordained. Heck, we can't even identify who is of the lineage of David because we don't have confirming DNA as to what tribe anyone is from - its all speculation. And a Parliamentary system which includes Muslim arabs doesn't seem to exactly fit the Biblical model either.
In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any similarities to Scriptural Israel. There never was any prediction that this socialist secular UN designated nation would come about - at least not in the way that God has always done so in the past by naming dates, places and prophets.
But lets ignore facts and reality and pretend The Template is the end all and be all, even if God doesn't seem to be playing along with our schemes. Why should any country support Israel militarily or politically when the Futurists claim that God will fight their battles?
I'm not sure exactly how every knee will bow in praise to God if the US under a Perry/Palin administration applies economic sanctions on whoever the Gog and Magog of the Week is for "cursing Abraham". The US nuclear arsenal and US Navy Sixth Fleet isn't quite what we expected to find in Ezekiel and Zechariah.
So when you hypocritically accuse me and 99% of all believers as scoffers because we don't buy into Scofield's Folly just remind yourself you don't believe it either because you and your fellow travelers are hedging your bets that God needs a backup from the utterly corrupt Washington DC based government for the salvation of Israel. That is why you folks shrink in horror and fear about any news from Egypt, Iran, Syria or Turkey - because you don't even believe your own interpretations of Scripture. The practical reality is, you trust and rely more on the US Government and mystical fantasy powers of the Israeli Mossad than on what you pretend God has promised.
Kind of like, *as in the days of Noah*.
Exactly
Maranatha
I really appreciate your level of intelligence and knowledge.
Thank you.
Because they know I'll throw an outdoor party stocked with JW, and keep the grass nicely mowed with the garden tractor before they arrive. :)
That reminds me, I should mow the lawn today. :^)
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