Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
The Sacrifice of the Mass shows both death and resurrection of Christ. It is not a separate sacrifice by itself but rather the making apparent to us the very sacrifice of the Cross in all its phases.
Also understand that Christ has one body. The glorified body that stood on the Mount Tabor and walked out of the tomb is still the body of Christ.
please take me off your ping list. Thank you.
So I ask again. Are you eating the glorified body or the earthly body?
Well that’s consistent with LDS, Islam, and many other cults who all claim “new information” not contained in the original manuscripts.
Exactly CB... unfortunately one of the ‘earmarks’ of false religions, and as you stated..cults...most claim this..and generally part of the bait and switch process.
Once an individual accepts this “new information” in which usually designates them as the “only ones” to have such revealed, they are open to any other false teaching along with it.
Also it’s common the “leadership” makes the claim....in order to be palitable to the entire. Signiture approval so to speak.
I don't have a ping list. I respond to whowever is pinged by the Freeper I am responding to. There is another such post coming up, and as a courtesy I will edit you out of that list. However, I cannot be held responsible if I not always remmeber to do that. We discussed it before, I believe.
If you don't want to read my posts, don't read them, or if that is too hard, ask posters who do ping you when they write to me, to not do so.
Also, it would be a good idea not to make stupid posts with accusations of "false religions" and "cults" like your 1045, if you don't want to be responded to them.
The Eucharistic Christ is the resurrected Christ, so the former, -- and I believe I already gave you that answer in 1038.
The Catholic Church does not claim "new information" and it is the Catholic clergy who wrote the "original manuscripts".
Yes you did and I did miss it. Sorry about that. Interesting.
The Greek verb does not match the English verb tenses 1:1, and I don’t know how you would express the burning and receiving/suffering differently based on two future events even in English. The Day (it doesn’t actually say “of the Lord”) is when the testing is manifest (φανερον), it says nothing of the time of the testing itself, δοκιμασει.
I do not think the Greek verb is going to define this as past event in any case, and rather than resorting to your own translation, you should argue based upon what your church has given you to read, and both the Douay and NAB have it as future, and the former also says “day of the Lord,” “for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire,” the “of the Lord” being an interpretative interpolation, which the NAB concurs with in its notes, and there is no problem at all making the testing and receiving rewards to be on the same day-period.
The contextual problem is with making this refer to a trial by fire which occurred at death, as “the day” is what is abundantly supported as being the day of the Lord/God/Christ, and which is associated with burning up chaff, these being false believers, directly or indirectly, and Christians are either making true ones or false. “For behold the day shall come kindled as a furnace: and all the proud, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall set them on fire, saith the Lord of hosts, it shall not leave them root, nor branch. “ (Mt. 4:1; cf. Mt. 3:12; 13:41-43) I think just being in the presence of Christ shall set the lost on fire, (cf. 2Thes. 1:8,9) in that day.
And if it refers to character refinement, as said, it is this world that the Scriptures clearly show as being the place where growth toward practical perfection takes place, from Job to Christ. (Heb. 2:10; 5:9: the latter as having passed all the tests in manifesting He was God) If 1Cor. 3 was only referring to the results of testing of one's faith-character being made manifest, rather than converts passing through or being consumed by the fire on that Day, then that testing would be here.
>1Cor. 3 is not speaking of a particular judgment at one's death<
Says you. It sure is judgment and it sure is particular. Some question remains when the testing itself is occurring.
If the testing itself is occurring in the day of Christ then this is not directly supporting postmortem purgatorial cleansing, which is what you have attempted to make this chapter say in order to support your church, though you disagree with her translation, and have ascribed more definitiveness to this chapter as referring to this than some far greater Roman Catholic authorities. But what Scripture most clearly supports is that 1Cor. 3 is speaking about the day of Christ, and what happens on that day.
>nor of a necessary purgation of character defects<
The purgation is of defective work done in good faith: stubble laid on the foundation of Christ.
You argued before that it was accumulated imperfections, which inferred character defects, and that is what describes purgatory, while 1Cor. 3:13-15 expresses that what is burned is something which should have remained if one was to gain the reward, while the one who loses things attains final full salvation despite this.
>Rather, contextually it is the judgment seat of Christ in which believers are rewarded according to how they built the church, and final salvation is also realized even by those who lost what they should have kept, which was not character defects, but works which reflected such.<
How is it “rather”? You are describing the particular judgment and the purgatorial passage that sometime follows correctly.
It is “rather” as the judgment of works by the fire test and the giving of reward both occur in “that day” period beginning at Christ's return.
>there is a final judgment, in which God “will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace<
Yes, the rewards are given at the Final Judgment, however our focus is the test by fire in 1 Cor which precedes it (one cannot make manifest something that has not occurred yet).
We disagree. One either dies in the Lord (Rv. 14:13) or you die in your sins, (Jn. 8:24) and the day will manifest that, but the way it does is by the fire which consumes the stubble and not the precious. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:40-43)
But the redeemed of the Lord who built the body of Christ by obedient faith will find mercy and rewards:
"The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well." (2 Timothy 1:18)
"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister." (Hebrews 6:10)
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." (2 Timothy 4:8)
>and assurance that a decree is infallible is not based on the strength of the weight of evidence and arguments behind her decrees<
True and false. The Church does not have an illogical faith, so the dogmas of the Church are all consistent between themselves, with earlier beliefs and with the scripture. However, the Church does not prove her dogmas from scripture as that would be a fallacious circular reasoning. The Church reveals the dogmas as she herself discovers them in the nascent form in the original deposit of faith.
These are claims, but the dogmas of the Church are “all consistent between themselves” and Tradition, Scripture and history as she defines them, and you are assured of her veracity because she has defined herself as assuredly infallible when speaking according to her infallibly define formula. Under this premise she can autocratically declare what she will as being infallible, and so it is. She can take one of many traditions and claim one is the DOF, disagreeing with the EO, but if she infallibly declares it so, then it is so because she decreed it so.
And i do understand that while Catholics appeal to Scripture in condescension to us, as if it were what supremely determines doctrine (and often engaging in their own interpretation of it), their goal is to bring us to forsake our appeal to it as such, and instead submit to Rome. But we find Scripture as warranting its claims based upon its evident manifold power, and becoming the standard for obedience and testing truth claimed, and which authority even the instruments and stewards of Scripture must demonstrate subjection to and dependance on, truth being manifest by conformity to it in text and fruit by which men are persuaded as seen in Scripture, which provided for reason as well as the church, etc.
>accepted decrees can lack debt and precision, as is substantially the case regarding purgatory and 1Cor. 3, and are still subject to some interpretation<
Yes. No one argued differently. What we know dogmatically is really very little: there is a process of purgation through which some souls go through on their way to heaven.
Indeed. Here. The latter fire on that day of the Lord is not to gain Heaven, but manifest quality of works and to give rewards accordingly.
>The Corinthians are God's building, (v. 9) and Paul's "work," (1Cor. 9:1) which foundation Paul laid, (v. 10) that being Christ, (v. 11) and another buildeth thereon, and how one buildeth thereupon determines the reward. (vs. 12ff)
And that this refers to all is confirmed in the light of the fact that it is the day of Christ when this judgment occurs, (1Cor. 1:18; 3:13)...<
Thank you. That is what I have been arguing: that the special context of the “church builders” – even if one thinks it persists to the “every man” passage, -- still cannot apply in its entirety only to clergy.
True, as here also context clarifies.
>In addition, the last days (plural) is the period of the church age…<
That is interesting but I don’t see how it relates to the issue of Purgatory. Your discourse there seems at first reading tainted with the highly speculative Protestant beliefs, whereas the Church avoids such speculation, especially as regards “two resurrections”.
It distinguished between the “last days” and the “last day,” which is key as to when the fire text and the manner of workmanship is revealed. As far as speculation, that is what Rome does much engage in, from the perpetual virginity and sinlessness and bodily ascension of Mary to purgatory. She just makes such traditions to be doctrine, but which presumption is not new. (Mk. 7:3-13) I do find the support from the CCC for the rise do the the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism, and if final restoration of faith to Israel interesting.
As regards 2 resurrections, that has real support for it, for if the first resurrection happens prior to the 1,000 years (“the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished [and the final battle of the Lord and slaying of the wicked]. This is the first resurrection: Rv. 20:5), then you have two resurrections. The first would be of believers (at the end of the tribulation it seems): “the dead in Christ shall rise first: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:16,17)
And which believers would then go with the Lord to the battle of Armageddon: "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Revelation 19:14) “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their unGodly deeds which they have unGodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which unGodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude. 1:14,15)
After the 1k years you have the final battle (the nations rising up against the camp of the elect) and the final physical slaying of the lost, (Rv. 20:7-10) and then you would have the general resurrection and judgment of Rv. 20:11-15. The latter does not say that it is only for the lost, but the point is that souls were resurrected prior to this. (Rv. 20:4-6)
This period may all be considered the day of the Lord, with the giving of rewards being after the judgment:
“And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. “ (Rv. 11:18)
Needless to say, this is contrary to the pretrib hypothesis, but all who abase themselves as damned and destitute of any worthiness of eternal life, but cast all their faith in the Lord Jesus to save them by His blood, with a faith that thus follows Him and dies in the Lord, will be with the Lord at death and realize glory, which the Lord shall lead them to.
>The issue is not that some have no works (that they built the church with) that burn, but where is it taught that some in purgatory do not need purification by purgation. The relevant catechisms do not teach this, but they teach the contrary:<
How is it contrary? Canon 1030 says “All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification”, thus separating those who are “still imperfectly purified” and the rest.
It is contrary because it has no place for a second class in purgatory, in which one “survives the fire unscathed and with a reward and the other loses the accumulated imperfections and sees no particular reward” but “a loss of the direct passage into sainthood,” as you stated earlier, in which it seemed you had one fire but two classes undergoing it in purgatory, which postmortem suffering you have vs. 13-15 referring to, with the fire only being a test for some, but the purifying fire for others. As i understand you now, you make that “the day” to be merely declarative of the results of an earlier fire, that of the “particular judgment” which is asserted to take place at death, but purgatory is the only place i see the CCC teaching a postmortem fire, and which is only for the imperfect believers. In any case, i see the test and the giving of rewards as basically one event, in the future day of Christ.
>Reducing the text to be about a postmortem cleansing fire which precedes entry into Heaven ignores contention about the nature of the suffering and the loss, and its purpose, and its time of this event period<
Well, yes. You are correct: 1 Cor. 3 does not spell out the precise nature of the Purgatory. We don’t know the “nature of the suffering and the loss”. The timing of it we do know because “it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27); and “this day thou shalt be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), -- and so the individual judgment and entry into heaven are not delayed till the Second Coming. We don’t, however know the duration of the purgatorial cleansing, nor even whether there is a sense of duration to it. The purpose we also know: to allow entry into heaven of those not sufficiently purified in life.
And there are conflicting opinions about the nature and experience of it, but the nature of the attempts to make purgatory the primary subject matter of 1Cor. 3:9-15, as speaking of the purification of the saved by burning off their inferior works, is a negative argument for me as regards purgatory being Scriptural, and i think we have pretty much exhausted this. We can only agree that there is a postmortem test by fire which will burn up inferior works, but i disagree that it is one that commences at death, and that it is for the purpose of holiness so that one can enter Heaven, or that the works are character defects themselves.
The idea of a postmortem purgatorial cleansing in order to attain heaven is one that is based the premise of the need for practical and heart-holiness to see the Lord, and as said, this must be an attribute of saving faith, but either on has this or he does not at death, and thus the focus on sanctification is in this world, were Christ Himself was perfected, in the sense of experience and victory, while the clearest and most explicit statements on the immediate postmortem state of the believer is with the Lord (my understanding of paradise is basically this), but more to come, as the Lord “shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.” (Rv. 7:17) And which reminds me of this beautiful hymn (on of 8,000 hymns written by blind Fanny Crosby!).
While Scripture provides for the magisterium and which is critical, the way God often preserved truth was by raising up true prophets (not Benny Hinn) from outside its ranks to reprove them such as for teaching mere traditions of the elders as doctrine, which what the Lord Himself reproved them for. (Mt. 15:2ff)
In addition, most of the Bible was already established as Scripture (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23) by the time period of Christ, essentially due to its heavenly and enduring qualities and effects and often by other supernatural attestation, and conflation and complementarity with what was prior established as being from God.
(In which the Lord revealed Himself to Abraham and supernaturally confirmed their faith and positive morality, and which Moses upheld and expanded upon, with God supernaturally establishing His authority, and the Law which He wrote, and which became the standard for obedience and for testing Truth claims, as a continuing principle.)
Like prophets, wise men and scribes before Him and who would come, (Mt. 23:34) the authority of Christ Himself did not come from being ordained or recognized by the formal magisterium, nor did His forerunner John the Baptist, which was a real problem for the Pharisees who yet had positional authority, and thus Christianity began as a virtuous rebellion. The Lord established His claims by referencing Scripture and the manner of effectual attestation it evidences being given to Truth, and a God can raise up children to Abraham from stones, (Mt. 3:9) so can He raise up stones to continue to build His church by demonstrable faith, though they be rejected by those who presume to sit in supreme over Scripture (which is what most cults effectively do) and who foster trust in itself.
The Truth of God today is established as being the church of the living God today only insofar as it manifests conformity to the Scriptures in doctrine, love, holiness and in power, with the gospel of grace effecting manifest regeneration with its fruits. For the "For the kingdom of God is not in word [self-proclamation or structure — or the sword of men], but in power." (1 Corinthians 4:20) To the glory of God who alone shall be exalted. (Is. 2:11) May its tribe increase, though i come short.
I count long Masses with overly elaborate musically rendered versions of The Gloria as Purgatory. There are definitely parish music directors in Purgatory - my purgatory is to listen to them and their purgatory is to take lessons from the angels until all the over-embellishment is worked out of their systems.
Add to that the lack of heart to sing unto the Lord, which i should do more of also. When i was a Catholic the priest used to exhort us to “sing like Protestants.”
Both the Particular Judgment and the Last Judgment are in the future relative to the life of the reader.
I think just being in the presence of Christ shall set the lost on fire […] in that day.
The extended quote about the fire and stubble, by the way, was from Malachi, not Matthew, -- an important distinction since the Old Testament simply did not have the concept of two judgments. Everyone agrees with you on this – this is why there is no reason to think that the combustion occurring in the sight of Christ shall be delayed till the Second Coming. Remember, the Judgment occurs at the time of death; at the Second Coming we have the manifestation of the existing multiple particular judgments to all, and to the living, and the judgment of the living.
the day will manifest that, but the way it does is by the fire which consumes the stubble and not the precious.
These quotes indeed describe fire at the Last Judgment, but note that the fire described in Matthew 13:40-43 is not the fire from which one emerged saved. It is the fact that the fire in 1 Cor. 3 is cleasning rather than annihilating that allows us to the description of the purgatory in it.
Under this premise [the Church] can autocratically declare what she will as being infallible, and so it is.
Well, she has the raw power to do so. It is like a general in the field has the raw power to command his troops to treason. This can be said of any delegated power, but it does not mean that the delegated by Christ power of the church is not legitimately delegated, or that she will lead people to apostasy because technically she can. We live by faith.
their goal is to bring us to forsake our appeal to it as such, and instead submit to Rome
Yes. The reliance on the scripture alone is a vicious circle that ends in loss of faith, and of course you should go to the source of the scripture with all your questions and doubts. That source is Christ in Heaven and His Church on earth.
As far as speculation, that is what Rome does much engage in, from the perpetual virginity and sinlessness and bodily ascension of Mary to purgatory
The Church does not speculate. The Church has the knowledge of the truth revealed to her, and she reveals it to the flock, first through the Christian scripture – which you seem to acknowledge, and also, as the flock matures, through the magisterial teaching every day. “the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you” (John 14:26)
As regards 2 resurrections, that has real support for it
Perhaps. Thanks.
you make that “the day” to be merely declarative of the results of an earlier fire, that of the “particular judgment” which is asserted to take place at death
Yes, correct. I “make that” because the church teaches that.
… but purgatory is the only place i see the CCC teaching a postmortem fire, and which is only for the imperfect believers
You did not turn the page. Here it is:
IV. Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
610 1 ⇒ Jn 3:14-15.
611 Cf. ⇒ Mt 25:31-46.
612 Cf. ⇒ Mt 5:22, ⇒ 29; ⇒ 10:28; ⇒ 13:42, ⇒ 50; ⇒ Mk 9:43-48.
613 ⇒ Mt 13:41-42.
614 ⇒ Mt 25:41.
615 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG # 12.
616 ⇒ Mt 7:13-14.
617 LG 48 # 3; ⇒ Mt 22:13; cf. ⇒ Heb 9:27; ⇒ Mt 25:13, ⇒ 26, ⇒ 30, ⇒ 31 ⇒ 46.
We can only agree that there is a postmortem test by fire which will burn up inferior works,
That is not a small agreement, actually. You seem to agree with the kernel of the teaching on the purgatory, but you have questions about its timing and precise nature. Everyone does. The Church actually teaches little about the purgatory because there is little we know.
Scripture explicitly confirms that Israel was uniquely the instrument of Divine written revelation and the stewards of it, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) yet Scripture explicitly confirms that they were not assuredly infallible, nor was this needed in order for writings to be established as Divine, and for truth to be preserved.
That is because the Jews rejected Christ and became the persecutors of the Church. To say that someone (Luther?) came and condemned the Church in the same way as Christ came and condemned the Jews is to stop believing in Christ as one Savior for all ages, Who also promised the victory to the Church, and destruction to her enemies.
The Truth of God today is established as being the church of the living God today only insofar as it manifests conformity to the Scriptures in doctrine, love, holiness and in power, with the gospel of grace effecting manifest regeneration with its fruits.
Of course. This is why I am Catholic, and you -- you must become.
That’s what the Mormons say of their prophets. That’s what the Muslims say of their prophet. That’s what the pagans say of their gurus, shamans, and other assorted “holy men”.
John 20:30-31 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Now that he has found salvation, he would continue to read this NT to find out how to serve and worship the Creator, his God, his Saviour. How to live his Christian life. He would then discover what the future of this world holds for those who are not saved. And he would learn that God's wrath will be poured out one day on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting world. Then that same Christ is going to return and set up His kingdom just as He promised in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. He is thoroughly equipped with the intended purpose of the Bible:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16,17.
Now suppose he sets out to find like-minded believers, to share his Christian life with. He finds a beautiful Church and decides to enter. What does he find? An empty pew where he watches priests celebrating the Mass, hearing confessions, and leading in the praying of the rosary before a statue of Mary. He searches his Bible, certain he must have missed all this. But no, it is not there. Confused, he asks someone to explain this mystery, not in the Bible, but performed by so many.
He's told about baptismal regeneration and justification, programs that last a year for the preparation of justification, seven sacraments, sanctifying grace, transubstantiation, a continuing sacrifice, confession to a priest, temporal punishment, indulgences, purgatory, merited eternal rewards, priestly ordination, the papacy, ruling bishops, the Magisterium, Mary's Immaculate Conception, her Assumption into Heaven, her co-redemptive work, and her mediation of all grace.
This new creature in Christ would have two choices. Knowing that these beliefs were not only NOT taught in Scripture, but actually contradicted God's Word, he could put his Bible aside and begin the journey to salvation through this RCC, or he could simply take his Bible, thank God for the simplicity that is in Christ, and move on.
For some, there are never enough proofs. For others, God's enduring word is proof enough.
I sure am thankful I stayed with the simple gospel found in scripture.
Both the Particular Judgment and the Last Judgment are in the future relative to the life of the reader.
In context and as quoted, by “future” i meant that this refers to the “day of the Lord” which is not when one dies but is a future period.
>“For behold the day shall come kindled as a furnace: and all the proud, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall set them on fire, saith the Lord of hosts, it shall not leave them root, nor branch. “ (Mt. 4:1; cf. Mt. 3:12; 13:41-43) ..I think just being in the presence of Christ shall set the lost on fire […] in that day...<
The extended quote about the fire and stubble, by the way, was from Malachi, not Matthew, -- an important distinction since the Old Testament simply did not have the concept of two judgments.
My mistake, while the provided cross references to Mt. are correct and refers to the day of the Lord.
Everyone agrees with you on this – this is why there is no reason to think that the combustion occurring in the sight of Christ shall be delayed till the Second Coming. Remember, the Judgment occurs at the time of death; at the Second Coming we have the manifestation of the existing multiple particular judgments to all, and to the living, and the judgment of the living.
How can you say combustion occurring in the sight of Christ is not that of the day of the Lord, in the light of the multiplicity of texts which shows that the actual judgment according to what one has done awaits the day of the Lord? And which judgment is not a mere declaration of a previous judgment that determines their sentences.
Those who are lost are already under a curse and judgment as they have no covering for their sins, and thus will die in them, (Jn. 8:24) thus “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth [present tense] on him.” (Jn. 3:36b) The difference now is that such may yet repent, and they do not yet suffer the deprivation of anything positive nor the realization of wrath, which they shall in their postmortem existence if they die in their sins. Because they are sinners with a savior, the lost do suffer in Hell beginning at death, (Lk. 16:9-31) while the redeemed of the Lord who now “sleep” are with the Lord, as the clearest texts show, (Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) but as the lost have no savior they now must be punished in accordance with their sins, and this actual sentencing of the lost as to how great their punishment will be, and the corresponding giving of rewards to the redeemed, awaits the Lord's return. A text you invoke for support, Heb. 9:22, does not specify how soon after, but in context refers to the second coming.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)
The Matthean section is also referring to judgment and combustion at “the end of this world,” not at one's death.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." (Matthew 13:40) "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just," (Matthew 13:49)
Add to this,
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" (Matthew 25:31-32)
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." (Matthew 25:41-43)
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
"But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city." (Luke 10:12)
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)
"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:31)
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 2:9)
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;” (Rom 2:5)
More have been and can be provided, and this day of wrath and revelation is when the fire consumes the lost:
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10)
>the day will manifest that, but the way it does is by the fire which consumes the stubble and not the precious.<
These quotes indeed describe fire at the Last Judgment, but note that the fire described in Matthew 13:40-43 is not the fire from which one emerged saved.
The only fire Scripture reveals as commencing at death is not purgative, but punitive, (Lk. 16:19-31) nor is the believe seen as suffering, but just the opposite, while the second coming of the Lord is not simply associated with revelation of who is saved and rewarded, but actual fire which tests every man's work by that Man whose eyes are a flame of fire, (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12) who at His coming shall give every man according as his work shall be. To reiterate, the lost, being already damned by rejection of Christ, shall suffer according to their guilt, (Rv. 20:12-13) while those redeemed by effectual faith, shall be rewarded according to their works of faith. (1Cor, 3)
Mt. 13:40-43 speaks of the manner of punishment for those who are lost, but not the details of the particular judgment at the end, as to their particular degree of punishment due to particular sins, and which others texts shows occurs in the day of the Lord.
And if the last judgment is when the lost are judged according to their works, and is when they are burnt accordingly, then this supports this time as being when the fire shall try every man's what sort it is, and believers are recompensed according to their works, as 1Cor. 3 teaches. But as with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego whom the Lord was with, (Dan. 3:19-25) this fire test shall not touch true believers. (While you may want to employ this typology for purgatory, it did not burn up their negative character defects, plus they were with the Lord in His presence. To the glory of God. )
"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)
It is the fact that the fire in 1 Cor. 3 is cleasning rather than annihilating that allows us to the description of the purgatory in it.
That is not RC purgatory, as again, the works being lost are not character defects (though they reflect that) which enable them to enter glory, but are works which should have endured, as those of them who are rewarded did, while those who lost works are not saved because they lost works, but despite this loss. In other words, the fire test is for rewards, and is not entrance into Heaven, and thus the loss of works results in loss of rewards, not the gaining of Heaven because they lost them.
Under this premise [the Church] can autocratically declare what she will as being infallible, and so it is.
Well, she has the raw power to do so. It is like a general in the field has the raw power to command his troops to treason. This can be said of any delegated power, but it does not mean that the delegated by Christ power of the church is not legitimately delegated, or that she will lead people to apostasy because technically she can. We live by faith.
The problem is that the general is his own authority, and has autocratically arrogated to himself power based upon the premise that no one can say he is wrong because he claims to define right and wrong. Thus does Rome, and fosters faith in herself as assuredly infallible, while the only transcendent material class of revelation which is assuredly perpetually infallible is Scripture, and reveals that no man is worthy of such a claim, nor is assured spiritual authority and that of the New Testament church established after the manner of the assuredly infallible magisterium of Rome.
>their goal is to bring us to forsake our appeal to it as such, and instead submit to Rome<
Yes. The reliance on the scripture alone is a vicious circle that ends in loss of faith, and of course you should go to the source of the scripture with all your questions and doubts. That source is Christ in Heaven and His Church on earth.
What is a viscous circle is that of Rome, in which according to her interpretation (or decree) only her interpretation (or decree) is correct in any conflict. Under that premise you can “prove anything, and it is not dependent upon the weight of evidence. In contrast, Scripture, being established by its Divine qualities, effects and attestation, is what instrumentally provides faith, (Rm. 10:17) as is the assured Word of God, (2Tim. 3:16) and the supreme standard for obedience and testing truth claims*) , and persuading souls by it is dependent upon manifestation of the truth. (2Cor. 4:2; Acts 17:2)
As or the premise that being an instrument of revelation equates to assured infallibility, the source of the Scripture is indeed Christ, via the Holy Spirit who used imperfect instruments to express His perfect word, and Scripture subjects His own instruments to it, (Mk. 7:3-13) and the authority of the latter is dependent upon conflation with Scripture and its attestation of truth. And again, if being the instrument of revelation conferred perpetual infallibility then Christianity would not exist, as unlike the church of Rome, Scripture explicitly states the Jews were both instruments of revelation and stewards of it, but were not assuredly infallible, but her magisterium was subject to reproof from Scripture by those outside the magisterium. While "the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power," (1 Corinthians 4:20) Rome's claim to supremacy is that of self-proclamation, so much so that her defenders repeat it as a substitute for an argument for it, while those who are truly part of His church need to reject many of her claims.
>As far as speculation, that is what Rome does much engage in, from the perpetual virginity and sinlessness and bodily ascension of Mary to purgatory<
The Church does not speculate. The Church has the knowledge of the truth revealed to her, and she reveals it to the flock, first through the Christian scripture – which you seem to acknowledge, and also, as the flock matures, through the magisterial teaching every day. “the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you” (John 14:26)
Worse, she teaches as dogma some things which should be speculation (and often were before she did), while the RC mantra (“the Church© has/is...) here is laden with presumptions which rely upon wresting of Scripture, which she shows she forgets what the Lord said, which things we know from Scripture, not the Book of Mormon or what Rome channels her amorphous oral “Tradition” as saying.
>As regards 2 resurrections, that has real support for it<
Perhaps. Thanks.
>you make that “the day” to be merely declarative of the results of an earlier fire, that of the “particular judgment” which is asserted to take place at death<
Yes, correct. I “make that” because the church teaches that.
This basis for your “conclusions” as one bound to defend Rome, work to disallow objective searching of the Scriptures to contradict her, at least as you interpret her. And hinders further exchange.
>… but purgatory is the only place i see the CCC teaching a postmortem fire, and which is only for the imperfect believers<
You did not turn the page. Here it is:
Unnecessary pasting as in context I was referring to postmortem fire for believers, and in which purgatory ti see the CCC only having one class, that of imperfect believers, not a second class who go through the same fire unscathed.
>We can only agree that there is a postmortem test by fire which will burn up inferior works,<
That is not a small agreement, actually. You seem to agree with the kernel of the teaching on the purgatory, but you have questions about its timing and precise nature. Everyone does. The Church actually teaches little about the purgatory because there is little we know.
Again, agreement on one aspect does not reconcile the issues: period, purpose and possessions.
>Scripture explicitly confirms that Israel was uniquely the instrument of Divine written revelation and the stewards of it, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) yet Scripture explicitly confirms that they were not assuredly infallible, nor was this needed in order for writings to be established as Divine, and for truth to be preserved.<
That is because the Jews rejected Christ and became the persecutors of the Church. To say that someone (Luther?) came and condemned the Church in the same way as Christ came and condemned the Jews is to stop believing in Christ as one Savior for all ages, Who also promised the victory to the Church, and destruction to her enemies.
To hold that a perpetual assuredly infallible magisterium on earth is is necessary to preserve truth is to deny the Scriptures and the power of God as to hold that God cannot and does not raise up believers from outside to correct the formal magisterium when it errors is to deny the Christian faith, as it was founded upon holy rebellion. And to presume that Rome cannot be corrected by such as Luther is make it the gates of Hell for multitudes, which is has become. And consistent with the type of loyalty to Rome based upon the basis for her claims, those who uphold her based upon such would have rejected John the Baptist and the Lord Himself who reproved those who presumed irreprovable supreme authority based upon formal transference of office, even though they actually had positional authority, but not assured infallibility.
>The Truth of God today is established as being the church of the living God today only insofar as it manifests conformity to the Scriptures in doctrine, love, holiness and in power, with the gospel of grace effecting manifest regeneration with its fruits.<
Of course. This is why I am Catholic, and you -- you must become.
And that is why i am no longer a Catholic, and i know both sides both doctrinally and experientially, having been a practicing Catholic for 6 years after becoming born again, and a CCD teacher and lector. And the more i engage Roman Catholics who must wrest and strain Scripture to find support due to being bound to defend Rome, even in things she has not infallibly defined and could change, the more it repels me as search the Scriptures to see if these things are so, with willingness to doctrinally go where the truth leads.
In addition, for what its worth, your position that one must become a Catholic before death in order to be saved is itself an interpretation of Rome, and a minority one at that in these times (though i believe it is more historical), and is in contradiction to official statements which generally recognize as Christians Protestants who have been baptized therein, “in which they are united with Christ,” and who “are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church,” and that “Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation.” (Lumen Gentium CCC 818. 19)
Nor do most evangelicals or even Reformed Christians exclude all Catholics from being saved, BUT if you have not humbled yourself as a lost sinner before God, as one damned for his sins and destitute of any merit whereby you may escape your just and eternal punishment in Hell fire, and placed all your faith in the Son sent by the Father to save you, believing on the sinless Lord Jesus Christ for the immediate forgiveness of all sins and the gift eternal life by His blood, resulting in manifest regeneration, with a faith that would then follow Him, than you never were a Christian. And there is much in Roman Catholicism that is contrary to the simplicity that is in Christ, and what she overall conveys is not the Scriptural gospel with its conviction that leads to effectual conversion.
John 8:36 - If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
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