Posted on 11/02/2011 9:26:44 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth
Well, I'm not a theological expert, so I can't explain exactly how praying for anyone (dead or not) works. I just know that we are commanded to pray for one another. Scripture commands us to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thessalonians 5:17) and specifically demands that we intercede "for one another" (James 5:16) and that we pray "for all" (1 Timothy 2:1). There are no qualifiers in these instructions; nothing that would act as though death has separated the Body of Christ or made prayers ineffective. In addition to this, we know that praying for the souls of the dead was a Jewish practice that Christians continued. 2 Maccabees 12:46 reads: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from sins."
Interestingly, the Apostle Paul seems to refer to praying for the dead (in this case, his friend Onesiphorus) in his second letter to Timothy. Specifically, he wrote (important part highlighted): "May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chains, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord's mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well." At the very least, reasonable people could conclude that at the time Paul wrote this, Onesiphorus had died and left behind a family (i.e. "house"), and that Paul was praying in the highlighted words that Onesiphorus would be granted God's mercy on the Day of Judgement.
(Excerpt) Read more at southernfriedcatholicism.com ...
Do you believe that Jesus’ blood, His sacrifice, requires nothing on our part in order to “get you all the way”?
Foolish question. Of course it does, it requires faith in Him, and your own repentance of sin. He said to take up your cross daily.
But He did the work of it.
I would suggest, stuart, you read the Bible and find out the answers you seek. They are there.
—So, if someone, regardless of their faith, prays to their creator for help, does the one and only God hear him?—
Is the person sincerely calling out to his creator? Then I believe so. After all, if one does that when accepting Jesus, I believe he would here.
One need not own a bible to have a personal relationship with God, but it does enhance your understanding of Him, IMO.
I’ve actually, when arguing with atheists/agnostics, challenged them to pray something like this: “God, if you are even real, show yourself to me as I read this.” and then read John.
I explain to them that they must be sincerely seeking the truth about God or it is a futile exercise. I was an intellectual agnostic. Nobody can be intellectually convinced of the veracity of the story of Jesus and His sacrifice, but if one is a worshiper of their own intellect, that intellect can get in the way.
I’m asking Cuban Leaf what he thinks, not God.
I’m asking Cuban Leaf what he thinks, not God.
What if a person is sincerely calling out to his creator, but is not a Christian? Do you think the creator hears him?
Do you ever pray that someone repents and embraces the faith?
Thanks, you could have just said no.
—Thanks, you could have just said no.—
I wasn’t being rude, I had just already said it. And I did not say no.
“Macabees was NOT part of the Hebrew Bible nor was it part of the early Church’s Bible and technically until the Councils of Trent it was not even canon in the Catholic bible.”
Tell that to the Ethiopian Jews. They accept the Septuagint canon.
Not to mention, tell that to the Early Church Fathers who routinely referred to the deuterocanonicals as scripture.
St. Jerome was only one father of the Church, but his judgement was overruled by the general consensus of the fathers and by numerous local councils in the 4th century whose canons were mandated as universally binding by the Council of Trullo in the 7th century.
The Council of Trent happened after Luther. Also, tell your theory to the Eastern Orthodox who don’t believe in indulgences or superogatory works.
I’ve never understood the Protestant ignorance when it comes to the canon. The fact is that Protestants discarded the deuterocanonicals because they contradicted their theology on prayers for the dead, free-will, etc.
I’ve actually, when arguing with atheists/agnostics, challenged them to pray something like this: “God, if you are even real, show yourself to me as I read this.” and then read John.
I explain to them that they must be sincerely seeking the truth about God or it is a futile exercise. I was an intellectual agnostic. Nobody can be intellectually convinced of the veracity of the story of Jesus and His sacrifice, but if one is a worshiper of their own intellect, that intellect can get in the way.
They are not Christian when they say that prayer.
—The fact is that Protestants discarded the deuterocanonicals because they contradicted their theology on prayers for the dead, free-will, etc.—
Why were they so against prayers for the dead that they dicarded them for that reason?
OK, my bad. I thought you meant the part that if they accepted Jesus when they prayed, He would hear.
If they weren’t Chritians, then they wouldn’t accept Jesus and God wouldn’t hear them.
Thanks for the clarification.
St. Augustine of Hippo writes in his “The City of God” Book 18 Chapter 36
Chapter 36.— About Esdras and the Books of the Maccabees.
After these three prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, during the same period of the liberation of the people from the Babylonian servitude Esdras also wrote, who is historical rather than prophetical, as is also the book called Esther, which is found to relate, for the praise of God, events not far from those times; unless, perhaps, Esdras is to be understood as prophesying of Christ in that passage where, on a question having arisen among certain young men as to what is the strongest thing, when one had said kings, another wine, the third women, who for the most part rule kings, yet that same third youth demonstrated that the truth is victorious over all. For by consulting the Gospel we learn that Christ is the Truth. From this time, when the temple was rebuilt, down to the time of Aristobulus, the Jews had not kings but princes; and the reckoning of their dates is found, not in the Holy Scriptures which are called canonical, but in others, among which are also the books of the Maccabees. These are held as canonical, not by the Jews, but by the Church, on account of the extreme and wonderful sufferings of certain martyrs, who, before Christ had come in the flesh, contended for the law of God even unto death, and endured most grievous and horrible evils.
Not exactly good history there. The author of this original blog post has a pretty good and concise timeline of the development of the Christian Canon of Scripture. You’d do well to check it out:
http://www.southernfriedcatholicism.com/p/scriptural-roots-brief-history-of.html?m=0
They run counter to the Protestant dogma of imputed righteousness.
Thanks for a good post, it contains almost all the stuff I was mulling over a couple of years ago when wondering how you could avoid admitting the existence of purgatory if you believed in the whole canon of the Bible. You can't.
Regards
—They run counter to the Protestant dogma of imputed righteousness.—
I’ve mostly gone to protestant churches and I have never heard that taught.
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